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January 2023 Pro Wrestling Discussion


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35 minutes ago, Log said:

I'd bet you could trace a TON of North American wrestling fans' interest in Japanese wrestling directly back to seeing Muta for the first time.

 

Edit: And after making it to the end of Schneider's article, I see he already made that observation.

Count me as someone who's interest in Japanese wrestling can be directly attributed to Muta's run in the late 80s and Liger's run in the early 90s. It was probably 5-7 years between setting them in WCW and me getting the internet,  but Japanese wrestling was one of the first things I tried to find once I had access to the internet.  They influenced my fandom as much as any American wrestlers.  You have to understand that I grew up in a small town in Ohio with no access to cable for the majority of my childhood. I'd spend spring and summer break in Virginia,  and that's pretty much all the WCW I ever watched. So my wrestling fandom was almost all WWF for 45 or so weeks or of the year... and Muta and Liger were still asking the most important wrestlers of my childhood. That's how to make an impression with limited opportunities. 

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9 minutes ago, Craig H said:

That was pretty much my same trajectory. Muta, then Liger, then thinking all Japanese wrestling rules.

I still remember the first time I went on the internet at my local public library. I was searching for them, and Masa Chono and Kensuke Sasaki. Loved all the Japanese stars that crossed over into early 1990s WCW.

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You can count me amongst those whose pro-wrestling fandom trajectory was greatly altered by Muta.

I was too young for his NWA run - missed it by a couple of years. There were probably other Japanese wresters I saw first. Kaientai in WWF, likely Liger in WCW and definitely Ultimo Dragon, maybe even Tajiri and Ikuto Hidaka in ECW. All of those wrestlers combined led me to want to research puroresu.

So on to the internet I went. But...I saw images of Muta and some of his elaborate NJPW entrance attires along with maybe some short video clips, and that sealed it for me. Muta was the wrestler that flipped the switch between "I think Japanese pro-wrestling might be of interest" to "I NEED to see this in motion and find out what it's all about." I'm pretty sure the first puroresu VHS order I ever put in was for two Great Muta comps, a "Best of Ultimo Dragon in Mexico/Japan" comp, and a Misawa/Kawada rivalry history tape. I've been hooked ever since.

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Same thing with me and my friends that watched wrestling. It was the face paint, the mist, the cool as shit moves he would do, and it was unlike anything any of us had ever seen. We're all kids at the time, so it just blew our minds. For as cool as Sting or Demolition or the Road Warriors or Vader was, Muta was on a whole other level. He may have been a heel, but it didn't matter to any of us. He was like the mirror universe Sting.

And then shortly after we see Liger doing even more high flying stuff and looking like a superhero and that was basically that. WWF was always my first love in pro wrestling, but they didn't have anyone near as cool as those two guys. In the early 90s when they brought in Hakushi we were kind of like, oh shit, is this WWF's answer to Muta? And while he was cool and all, it just wasn't the same.

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The Steiners have signed a legends deal according to a random sponsored FB that came across my shit. A quick Google showed a bunch of results, none of which I clicked but it must be true with so many. 

They’ve discontinued DVD sets right? A properly done Steiners set is 1 of my holy grails. Do they still do docs somehow? Somewhere? Just no more physical media? 

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1 hour ago, BloodyChamp said:

The Steiners have signed a legends deal according to a random sponsored FB that came across my shit. A quick Google showed a bunch of results, none of which I clicked but it must be true with so many. 

They’ve discontinued DVD sets right? A properly done Steiners set is 1 of my holy grails. Do they still do docs somehow? Somewhere? Just no more physical media? 

Physical media in the UK still thankfully. The 3 Disc Sets of matches and usually a documentary to go with.

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I will say first that I intended to have a quick answer with as little bias as possible.  But as I was typing I found it hard to do that without the Bret>>>Shawn mindset coming in.  While Shawn/Taker was incredible Bret/Austin was fucking magnificent.  I'm sure the usual folks will go into further detail why but to me it's not even close.

Shawn/Taker set the tone for HIAC and established from the jump what that match is all about.  Shawn knew he was stepping into Hell, 'Taker was ready to deliver sweet revenge and you felt it was going to be bloody and violent.  Awesome.  And it was a lot of that before Kane comes out, 'Taker is perplexed and chickenshit heel Shawn wins after the tombstone.  Really effective, put a bow on 'Taker/Shawn and set the tone for 'Taker/Kane.  No complaints here and I loved the match a lot  Heck, I still adore it and really need to go back and watch that again.

BUT if we're focusing solely on the WM13 match and the story it told (others they had were fucking awesome) it's impossible to overstate how much this meant to not just Austin's increasing popularity but also to Bret's full-on switch to heel mode in the US.  Yeah, it took a year for Austin to get the title but from there it got his run to the title run off to a hot start.  Hot enough to overcome his Summerslam injury and not only stay relevant but add so much to his story after he had the stinger.  And Bret was likely going to be heel anyway in '97 but that match set the tone for what he was going for throughout the year.  And hey, if I can hear from the GOAT not named Danielson to say in person it was his favorite match then of all that he had that says something.

Okay, I intended to not show bias but I guess I failed.  I liked Shawn a lot in the 90s/early 200s but before it was cool to confirm online for the longest time I was a Bret>>>>Shawn guy.  That occurred to me maybe a year after Shawn retired when I had a chance to think back on their careers.  And it only intensified as the years went on.

I feel part of this question is bait and maybe I bit on it.  But you know what, why the fuck not as it made me post more than expected when I should be sleeping.  But there you go.

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1 hour ago, Octopus said:

Which do you prefer: Bret Hart vs Steve Austin OR Shawn Michaels vs The Undertaker?

Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin. Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin at WWF WrestleMania 13 is my pick for the greatest wrestling match of all time with the best finish ever, I rate it that highly. A ***** match. Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin from Survivor Series 1996 is also a ***** match but is overshadowed by the rematch.

I've always loved Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker at WWF In Your House 18: Badd Blood in Hell in a Cell. Shawn Michaels best match and The Undertaker's best. *****. I and @Brian Fowler have it above the WrestleMania XXV classic. Gave that ***** also.

Here's how I'd rank them:

8. Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin. WWF In Your House 14: Revenge of the Taker.

7. Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin. WWF RAW, 21st April 1997.

6. The Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels as the final two in the 2007 Royal Rumble match.

5. The Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels. WWE WrestleMania XXVI.

4. Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin. WWF Survivor Series 1996. *****.

3. The Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels. WWE WrestleMania XXV. *****.

2. Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker. WWF In Your House 18: Badd Blood. *****.

1. Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin. WWF WrestleMania 13. *****.

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10 hours ago, Octopus said:

Which do you prefer: Bret Hart vs Steve Austin OR Shawn Michaels vs The Undertaker?

Furnas and LaFon vs. Owen and Bulldog.

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10 hours ago, Octopus said:

Which do you prefer: Bret Hart vs Steve Austin OR Shawn Michaels vs The Undertaker?

While i do love the Hart/Austin WM13 match, and it deserves all of the credit that it gets, i would personally rather watch the HIAC every time.

the dichotomy between the little loudmouth getting his comeuppance from the big evil guy was just amazing. the foreboding feeling of violence that permeates the start of the match was palpable. the action delivered. the violence delivered. and we get the introduction of Kane (low key one of the best new character debuts of all time?) perfect balance all around. 

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16 hours ago, Ace said:

Muta and Liger compelled me to get the WCW/NJPW SuperShow PPV which got me into New Japan.

Yeah, that was the one of the only PPVs my parents let me get because it was only like 10 bucks.  I had seen Muta on TV but not Liger and Liger/Akira blew my tiny mind.

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22 hours ago, twiztor said:

Missed out on Muta until much later, but Jushin Liger and Ultimo Dragon both blew my mind when i found them in WCW, and the J-Crown '96 tape was the first Japanese tape i bought off the internet. 

Yeah, I think I'm probably close in age to you because those were very much the WCW guys that sparked my interest in non-deathmatch puro -Ultimo more than anyone, but also a little Liger, NWO Chono, Yuji Nagata, even some of the B/C show guys like your Kaz Hayashis and Magnum Tokyo/Tokyo Magnums (they changed his name every f'n weekend...)

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20 minutes ago, Peck said:

As a 7-year-old in 1989, Muta was singlehandedly responsible for 46 nightmares that year.

I thought he was cool. I rooted for him against dorky Sting.

Him and early heel Undertaker had those "too awesome in presentation and moves to cheer against" vibes for me as a kid. Heel Savage too, for that matter. Those were my guys as a kid even though they were heels.

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9 minutes ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I thought he was cool. I rooted for him against dorky Sting.

Him and early heel Undertaker had those "too awesome in presentation and moves to cheer against" vibes for me as a kid. Heel Savage too, for that matter. Those were my guys as a kid even though they were heels.

For me, that was Chris Jericho throughout '98. Forget for a second that he was, in retrospect, probably one of the best then-young guys they had in-ring - the progressively dumber ponytails, the tantrums after tearing Penzer's tux off THREE times, the absurd nicknames (Everyone remembers Dean-O Machine-O, but never any love for the late Bobby Duh-duh-duh-Duncum) - it worked on every single level for me, and it holds up well. I think that's part of why Britt Baker's stuff was so over in my house during the pandemic when she was doing a bit of a redux on the 'Conspiracy Victim' stuff - all that was missing was her going to the Library of Congress to find the NWA rulebook from 1948.

Prior to Jericho, as far as heels go, presentation-wise, I was a big NWO kid, but after they slammed Flair's head in the cage door at Fall Brawl '97 and Hennig turned on the Horsemen, they showed a picture of Flair's face to open Nitro the next night that scared the living shit out of me and made me think perhaps they went too far (I wouldn't be accidentally smartened up for another two months). I think I remember reading they used IRL post-op pics of a facelift he'd had or something, but who knows if that's true - you could go on AOL and say whatever the hell you wanted back then.

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14 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

For me, that was Chris Jericho throughout '98. Forget for a second that he was, in retrospect, probably one of the best then-young guys they had in-ring - the progressively dumber ponytails, the tantrums after tearing Penzer's tux off THREE times, the absurd nicknames (Everyone remembers Dean-O Machine-O, but never any love for the late Bobby Duh-duh-duh-Duncum) - it worked on every single level for me, and it holds up well. I think that's part of why Britt Baker's stuff was so over in my house during the pandemic when she was doing a bit of a redux on the 'Conspiracy Victim' stuff - all that was missing was her going to the Library of Congress to find the NWA rulebook from 1948.

Prior to Jericho, as far as heels go, presentation-wise, I was a big NWO kid, but after they slammed Flair's head in the cage door at Fall Brawl '97 and Hennig turned on the Horsemen, they showed a picture of Flair's face to open Nitro the next night that scared the living shit out of me and made me think perhaps they went too far (I wouldn't be accidentally smartened up for another two months). I think I remember reading they used IRL post-op pics of a facelift he'd had or something, but who knows if that's true - you could go on AOL and say whatever the hell you wanted back then.

yeah, we are certainly the exact same demographic, as my experience mirrors yours. i loved all of Jericho's nicknames for people: Tony Skee-a-vone, Ron Mysterio, Quasi Juice, etc. By the time Ralphus was introduced, Jericho was among my favorite parts of Nitro.

I didn't watch Fall Brawl that year and that closeup of Flair's face made me actually think that maybe Flair had died (not necessarily due to the head slamming, just in general). bizarre way to open the show, that's for sure.

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