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ROH FINAL BATTLE- 12/10/2022!


DEAN

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21 minutes ago, zendragon said:

Also wrestling as a touring attraction seems to be going the way of the old school territories

ROH from 2015-2018 drew crowds entirely on the back of Kenny and the Bucks - if they're not going to appear at small-venue ROH tapings (and they might think themselves "too big" for that at this point), then touring wouldn't be worth it unless you establish someone else as a draw

NXT is seeing the problem now of being stuck with weekly national TV when your developmental roster is thin - can't run house shows or Takeover PPV's when there's no attractions

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20 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

Unprotected chairshots to the head = 1 week suspension, and the manager no one cares about gets to complain about it publicly

Yikes

Yea can't possibly be part of the story, oh wait...

 

You are trying too hard, there are plenty of legitimate things to complain about with AEW/ROH without just being a mindless troll, you can do better.

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21 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

Unprotected chairshots to the head = 1 week suspension, and the manager no one cares about gets to complain about it publicly

Yikes

The fuck? You might be the most egregious outrage harvester I’ve ever encountered… and this is coming from a guy who’s own inability to let things go is well documented…

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13 minutes ago, Kevin Wilson said:

You are trying too hard, there are plenty of legitimate things to complain about with AEW/ROH without just being a mindless troll, you can do better.

Dralistico's chairshot to AR Fox was gross - luchadores getting pissy because of a botched finish shouldn't allow them to assault a man

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12 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

Dralistico's chairshot to AR Fox was gross - luchadores getting pissy because of a botched finish shouldn't allow them to assault a man

You already fucked up one thread with your incessant bullshit. Knock this shit off.

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3 hours ago, zendragon said:

Also wrestling as a touring attraction seems to be going the way of the old school territories, take a page from Lucha Underground and build a ROH Arena in a warehouse and run tapings. (Having watched LU on Netflix and Tubi I think a weekly streaming wrestling show could really work)

I Do agree that TK hopefully has learned to delegate 

Beyond Wrestling runs Wrestling Open in the same venue every week. They usually draw upwards of 300 people, and that's in Worcester Massachusetts (not a particularly big city).

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Meltzer:

Quote

If you are voting for match of the year this year, you have to watch the Briscoes vs. FTR chain match yesterday at ROH Final Battle. The match was incredible. Now if you don't like blood, don't watch it, but otherwise I can't imagine anyone thinking seeing that match wouldn't be worth $40.

 

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If I'm gonna be an edgelord I'm gonna do it in the service of cultivating worthwhile discussion about wrestling.

Alright, so, FTR/Briscoes 3. Nobody with the gift of sight (or taste) is gonna call this anything less than a classic. But I just gotta give in to that 20% percent of my brain that wants to gripe.

The second the bell rang, I thought to myself "all four of these guys are gonna blade".

One of the reasons we bitch about guys "getting their shit in" is because when you're waiting for that inevitable highspot, it takes you out of the scene. It takes you out of the realism and the belief suspension of good theater. Yeah some spots always get a pop and it's smart to know how to use them, but they're cheap pops. They're catchphrases. When James Evans died in a tragic car accident, the last shot of the episode wasn't JJ going "That's not very Dy-no-mite ;(". And that's where FTR loses me a lot. They are the most crushingly self-aware act in the business. FTR fool us, because most Pretentious High-End Wrestling is aping Shawn Michaels and 90's AJPW-cum-00's NOAH and kickouts and no-sells and moonsaults and post-ECW plunderbumps and a really rigid, maximalist approach to the nearfall section of a match. FTR's territorial Mid-South 'n Crockett worship might be a different flavor of reverence than we're used to but they'd still rather pray than preach. The fact that they mark out over their Meltzer stars as part of their gimmick should tell you enough - would Arn Anderson even consider doing something like that? Like I love that Dax gave some props to @Phil Schneider on Twitter the other day. They're pulling from wrestling critics that aren't just Meltzer. But god damn so much of their high-end stuff feels so performative and tribute-based, regardless of influence.

I think Dax vs. Cash was the worst good match of 2022. Two dudes who present themselves as purveyors of this old-school, smashmouth, it's-still-real-to-me-fuck-it style went out there and instead of paying tribute to Bret and Owen's ability to keep it realistic and honest and natural, went and tried to do a shot-for-shot remake of somebody else's match. They Gus Van Sant's Psycho'd that shit. And there wasn't nearly as much of that in this match w/ the Briscoes, but there was some. Just enough of it. I didn't care that Dax couldn't hit a headbutt with a chain wrapped around his head cause his head was too bloody. That looked real. I loved that the finish was sort of abrupt on a night of sort of abrupt finishes. I can live with the fact that Jay and Dax + Cash and Mark being the chain pairings was too obvious. I just don't like the fact that the blood, the BLOOD that the match was built around, felt like regularly scheduled high spot. Jay's gusher felt wild and real, and maybe he shoulda went last. Dax and Cash bled because they had to. Because Dusty and Terry and Flair would have. Like dude could you imagine Dax getting a decent more amount of heel heat if he was the only guy not to blade? 

Anyways yeah. That's the spiciest take I can manage. That's why, in all my anti-Meltzerian grandstanding, I only give this match ****3/4 stars. Funny thing about blood, it's pretty iron-y.

Edited by John E. Dynamite
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I'm slowly playing catch up. The pre-show was excellent, by the way. Not a lot to specifically say but I'm very much looking forward to 2.0 vs Top Flight. (Heel) FTR vs Top Flight would probably be better, but 2.0 is very much up there in working a traditional tag style without everything breaking down and getting stupid too early. They could ground things perfectly for Top Flight. The Willow vs Adora match felt a little weird on a hierarchy perspective for me, if only because I think a year ago both were positioned pretty equally out in the indies and now Willow's really become a star. It's not that Adora isn't a good hand, because she is and the match was good, but Willow is definitely ascendant and it feels like Adora really hasn't gotten her shot. Dorada vs Cobb could have been midway through the main show. It really was the great Lucha Underground match we never got. Top flight's finish was sick, but more than that, Darius showed me something unique for the first time. We've seen so much Dante and so little of him relatively and I wasn't sure what he brought to the table but more of the same, just with less hangtime. But he had some amazing fire with his punch flurry and that'll make him a great hot tag in the years to come if he can keep on channeling it. If they ran another ROH PPV tomorrow, I think I'd be more excited for what got named to the pre-show than whatever the show was itself. Just random, joyous peak-AEW style energy there.

  • The opener was good. I like Christian more in tag settings I think. He really got mauled once things opened up on the outside. Dralistico being full rudo instead of a tweener or a tecnico that's booed and acts accordingly, is weird to me. Didn't they attack him before anyway? Ian is a big dork, but he's a very, very quick dork. And a very well prepared one, and he's able to pivot, if not in the moment, than immediately thereafter. I'm a dork too and he notices a bunch of the stuff I might, or references things I would. Things like calling Rush's cable an extra auxiliary one. Sometimes, it's like giving people superfluous information in a world problem, but that's kind of how I live my life so I sympathize. The finish was pretty viable to me, with them making sure that RUSH couldn't break up the pinfall. I thought it was going to come earlier on something more haphazard. There's no shame in getting pinned on a 450 after escaping one or two other pinfalls in an obvious finishing stretch. I assume this was just how things were supposed to be since Vance was very quick to note that he'd be talking to JR on Friday in the post match interview. Also, does he just have bad posture or what? He didn't look all that big on the outside next to Jose. I know Jose is pretty ripped but Vance is supposed to be a big heavyweight dude.
  • I'm a little torn on Mercedes vs Athena. I loved the immediate dodge of the Forearm-That-Athena-Uses-To-Start-Her-Matches and it was a big moment when she hit it later. Likewise, I loved how she missed the shotgun dropkick on the outside but then hit it into the exposed post to set up the finish. And obviously, Mercedes is an emotive pro's pro and was able to adapt on the fly to playing de facto heel, but this match would have been better if it had the logical heel/face dynamic. There was too much that Athena wanted to do within the match that was just set to get boos, and even though Mercedes adapted and even though the crowd was happy to cheer Athena for doing bad things, I could see a rematch somewhere in... Ohio or something, being a lot better than this turned out being (through no real fault of the wrestlers). 
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9 hours ago, John E. Dynamite said:

If I'm gonna be an edgelord I'm gonna do it in the service of cultivating worthwhile discussion about wrestling.

Alright, so, FTR/Briscoes 3. Nobody with the gift of sight (or taste) is gonna call this anything less than a classic. But I just gotta give in to that 20% percent of my brain that wants to gripe.

The second the bell rang, I thought to myself "all four of these guys are gonna blade".

One of the reasons we bitch about guys "getting their shit in" is because when you're waiting for that inevitable highspot, it takes you out of the scene. It takes you out of the realism and the belief suspension of good theater. Yeah some spots always get a pop and it's smart to know how to use them, but they're cheap pops. They're catchphrases. When James Evans died in a tragic car accident, the last shot of the episode wasn't JJ going "That's not very Dy-no-mite ;(". And that's where FTR loses me a lot. They are the most crushingly self-aware act in the business. FTR fool us, because most Pretentious High-End Wrestling is aping Shawn Michaels and 90's AJPW-cum-00's NOAH and kickouts and no-sells and moonsaults and post-ECW plunderbumps and a really rigid, maximalist approach to the nearfall section of a match. FTR's territorial Mid-South 'n Crockett worship might be a different flavor of reverence than we're used to but they'd still rather pray than preach. The fact that they mark out over their Meltzer stars as part of their gimmick should tell you enough - would Arn Anderson even consider doing something like that? Like I love that Dax gave some props to @Phil Schneider on Twitter the other day. They're pulling from wrestling critics that aren't just Meltzer. But god damn so much of their high-end stuff feels so performative and tribute-based, regardless of influence.

I think Dax vs. Cash was the worst good match of 2022. Two dudes who present themselves as purveyors of this old-school, smashmouth, it's-still-real-to-me-fuck-it style went out there and instead of paying tribute to Bret and Owen's ability to keep it realistic and honest and natural, went and tried to do a shot-for-shot remake of somebody else's match. They Gus Van Sant's Psycho'd that shit. And there wasn't nearly as much of that in this match w/ the Briscoes, but there was some. Just enough of it. I didn't care that Dax couldn't hit a headbutt with a chain wrapped around his head cause his head was too bloody. That looked real. I loved that the finish was sort of abrupt on a night of sort of abrupt finishes. I can live with the fact that Jay and Dax + Cash and Mark being the chain pairings was too obvious. I just don't like the fact that the blood, the BLOOD that the match was built around, felt like regularly scheduled high spot. Jay's gusher felt wild and real, and maybe he shoulda went last. Dax and Cash bled because they had to. Because Dusty and Terry and Flair would have. Like dude could you imagine Dax getting a decent more amount of heel heat if he was the only guy not to blade? 

Anyways yeah. That's the spiciest take I can manage. That's why, in all my anti-Meltzerian grandstanding, I only give this match ****3/4 stars. Funny thing about blood, it's pretty iron-y.

The thing is that for a team that has a reputation for so Old School, all three masterpieces against the Briscoes are about as far removed from a Rock N Roll Express vs Midnight Express old school match as humanly possible.  There are no heat segments or cutting off the ring or any of that stuff.  It was all Funks versus Brodie/Hansen until the dog collar match where it became Terry Funk/Terry Funk vs Dory Funk/Mad Dog Sawyer.  And you were really confused and put off by THE BLOOD?

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7 minutes ago, The Natural said:

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Ian Riccaboni and Caprice Coleman. Best commentary team in wrestling.

They're very good. There was a moment where Athena was really playing up the 9 count and rushed back into the ring and I think Coleman covered by saying that she had such amazing fight in her to make the 10 count when she had 20 and that gave Ian time to think things through and note that Athena's been more used to wrestling under AEW rules than ROH rules, and then Coleman bounced back on how that could give Mercedes an advantage in general. It just worked out really well and they do that sort of thing a lot. 

I was thinking about maybe hiring Nigel either to replace Regal in the BCC or to help announce ROH and the latter is really not necessary.

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On 12/11/2022 at 10:23 AM, The Natural said:

Just finished watching #FTR vs. The Briscoes go 3/3 in MOTYC and ***** matches. What a trilogy. Ranking them sleep deprived, I'd go right now:

3. #FTR vs. Briscoes. ROH Death Before Dishonour, 23rd July 2022.

2. #FTR vs. Briscoes. ROH Final Battle, 10th December 2022.

1. #FTR vs. Briscoes. ROH Supercard of Honour XV, 1st April 2022.

You?

 

On 12/11/2022 at 2:01 PM, DEAN said:

Oh, I would probably go 

3. #FTR vs. Briscoes. ROH Supercard of Honour XV, 1st April 2022.

2. #FTR vs. Briscoes. ROH Death Before Dishonour, 23rd July 2022.

1. #FTR vs. Briscoes. ROH Final Battle, 10th December 2022.

because I am all about blood and recency bias,

Been reflecting on mine and DEAN's lists. My ranking remains unchanged but it's closer between the Double Dog Collar Match and the first match at Supercard of Honour. What tips it to Supercard of Honour was the hotter crowd and it was a true dream match that delivered. Double Dog Collar Match was a bloody brawl which somehow delivered on the highest expectations from the previous two. The two out of three falls is last despite that being one of my favourite wrestling stipulations ever. Worst crowd also.

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I thought the top 3 matches ranged anywhere from blow your mind away good to pretty cool. Obviously the tag titles match was out of this world. I can't believe some of those bumps all four were taking. Darby Allen would blush at some of that. I figured FTR weren't going to beat the Briscoes three times in a row though. Hindsight being 20/20, it may have made more sense to go with the Briscoes winning the second match and then FTR winning the rubber match. But you can also do a 4th Briscoes vs FTR match.

I really liked the psychology in the Yuta vs Garcia match. Garcia is such an awesome piece of shit. I liked the story of Yuta being thrown off of his game and Garcia looking to exhaust Yuta's rope breaks and then the KO finish to cement that not only is Yuta a better wrestler, but he can also do more damage than Garcia.

Main event was some fine WWE styled stuff, but of course the thing I liked the most was the finish. That was cool as hell to see someone actually tap out to the giant swing.

The rest of the matches I honestly wasn't feeling. One of the tag matches had a botched finish and I thought was rough in parts, SIOG vs STP went a little too long with Lee overcoming the odds. Again, trim 5 minutes or more off of that match and it's probably better for it. I didn't really care about the 6 man titles match. Oh, and I did like Joe vs Juice, but man, it's hard to follow the tag titles match.

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