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ROH FINAL BATTLE- 12/10/2022!


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6 minutes ago, porksweats said:

Weekly TV for 9.99, clear separation of ROH on AEW TV it sounds like.

Wish they could add Dynamite and Rampage too, that would be definitely worth $9.99/month since I’m about to cut the cable

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You know we all built the TV deal up to be a much bigger deal than it turned out to be, but we should've tempered our expectations as we look back this article from after Death Before Dishonor

 

https://www.rohwrestling.com/news/roh-announces-updated-card-death-dishonor-ppv-expanded-ppv-purchase-options-and-new-honorclub

 

Quote

HonorClub Transformation

Ring of Honor is also currently revamping its HonorClub program with enhanced elements and functionality. During this ongoing transformation, there will be a pause on accepting new memberships. Current memberships (as of July 16, 2022), will be extended at no additional cost until the refreshed HonorClub platform is launched in early fall 2022.

Fans will be able to subscribe to HonorClub for a monthly fee of $9.99. New HonorClub content will become available 60 days after the events happen live.

 

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1 minute ago, JLowe said:

Wish they could add Dynamite and Rampage too, that would be definitely worth $9.99/month since I’m about to cut the cable

If AEW gets kicked off TNT and TBS I'd expect Honor Club will be renamed AEW Network in a couple years, and then you'll see the whole AEW/ROH archives together. But until then, Tony's trying to sell AEW's content (past and future) to Warner Bros. Discovery for more money

Warner obviously doesn't want ROH or its archives, and Tony can't upset them by shopping ROH to a competing network, so this is really his only option other than shelving ROH (or just running standalone shows like he's currently doing)

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When you consider how many other indies have their events on their own streaming service or something like Highspots it isn't that much of a surprise. This also assures anyone can get access to it even if they're in a market without whatever channel its on, or who doesn't have cable. I'm assuming they'll have all the ROH back catalog on there? That would definitely make it worth the fee for a lot of people, and I'm assuming they'll go to having one "big" show a month like they used to. I do wonder if they'll put up a clipped/recap version of the weekly show on youtube.

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38 minutes ago, S.K.o.S. said:

I question how they couldn't even get one of those little channels that Impact aired on to pick up an ROH show, but I guess they figured $9.99 a month from viewers would be more profitable than that, or something.

If I'm not mistaken part of the AEW TV contract is TK isn't allowed to work with a competitor while with WBD. Again it's a fluid situation but unless TK wanted to risk souring the WBD relationship, if they passed on ROH there really isn't any other option. Technically ROH isn't AEW. But don't think for a second there wouldn't be some legalities involved and lawyering around what constitutes as a AEW / ROH by WBD's definitions.

At this point I'm on board with scrapping ROH. AEW is the brand here. You're starting to hurt the mothership for the side project. Unify all the titles. Keep the library in your back pocket. Get back to focusing on the one true brand you are trying to create a legacy for. This ROH thing has been misstep after misstep from day one.

This is literally no different than The Invasion. You bought something with an idea in mind. That idea didn't come to fruition. Quit beating the dead horse and just move on.

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Sorry, but how is this them giving up if they're on an app that works and under a monthly subscription? Would it really be different if they were on HBO Max and having to get a cut from WBD instead of pocketing the whole thing on their own? I just checked it and the ROH app has practically everything there. Now that TK announced it just advertise the crap out of it now and it's a win. 

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I thought it was an excellent show, very enjoyable all the way through. Preshow was fun with Top Flight/Kingdom the obvious highlight.

RUSH and Dralistico got screwed! Nice match before that though, AR Fox was on fire with the dives.

Athena/Mercedes was solid although with a role swap since the crowd was 100% Athena in her home. The turnbuckle bit distracted a little from the finish as the crowd got pissed at security for taking the buckle back from the fan that caught it. The title win felt like a big deal and a nice moment for Athena, well deserved.

Swerve/Lee v. Shane/JD was one of the matches I was looking forward to the most and it absolutely delivered. Keith was SUPER over as another hometown guy and I loved the massive pop for when he caught Taylor in mid air. Crowd was hot for any and all Keith/Shane face offs and they played that up nicely throughout. Bit on a few of the near falls. I still was holding out hope that Swerve/Lee would work it out and continue to be a team despite their differences. Once Swerve walked out, I thought Shane/JD should take it but ultimately it ended up a great overcome the odds anyway finish for Keith. 

Garcia/Yuta was great as usual. Finish felt out of nowhere and I didn't see it coming, totally expected Garcia to be retaining. Seeing all these title changes I started to wonder if maybe The Ocho had a chance and then I was really buying it when Menard said they were gonna make Claudio tag with Hager in a team called "Hat Trick" (AEW filed to trademark that term last week)

Briscoes/FTR was amazing as always. I had a feeling the Briscoes couldn't go 0-3. Incredible war as expected, loved the dog collar stip. Kept thinking it wouldn't end until they went through that table outside. Mark's flip bump onto the floor instead was wild. FTR wearing white as Dax ends up with blood stained trunks by the end of it. Wondering if FTR lose all their other titles before bouncing back by finally winning back the AEW tags as the ones that eluded their collection run. The Gunns getting involved after had me wanting to see a triple threat tag.

Joe/Juice was solid despite it's random feeling, more competitive than I expected.

Main event ruled. Finish was an out of nowhere shocker to see the Swing actually get the win, but thought it was built to really well with the prior teases and the initial counter of the Swing rolled through in to the Walls was fantastic. Big pop for the win.  The Ocho was a hell of a run, loved it. This was another cool title win moment for Claudio. 

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49 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said:

I just checked it and the ROH app has practically everything there.

I'm not seeing anything before 2013 outside of 2011 and 2012 TV seasons. ROH on HDNet from 2009 and 2010 is completely missing.

And WWE has said repeatedly that their archival material was the least-viewed thing on the Network, so outside of diehards I'm not seeing who this would appeal to.

Did ROH ever release any of the older shows with edited music? It took a long time for WWE to edit the old ECW shows before they were released to streaming. That would probably be a huge undertaking if they haven't already started the editing process.

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1 hour ago, NikoBaltimore said:

Sorry, but how is this them giving up if they're on an app that works and under a monthly subscription? Would it really be different if they were on HBO Max and having to get a cut from WBD instead of pocketing the whole thing on their own? I just checked it and the ROH app has practically everything there. Now that TK announced it just advertise the crap out of it now and it's a win. 

Fair point. But I'm factoring in the tiny fraction of people who will buy Honor Club. The ROH PPVs have generated around 30k buys. So lets say everyone one of those gets Honor Club. That's still only 30k people following your product in a country of 330 million. They really won't be a viable touring brand based on their own merit. They'd have to sprinkle in known AEW quantities to help draw. Then you're diluting AEW that way.

Now maybe they choose to go the studio wrestling route. You alleviate the touring and need for drawing in different markets. But the numbers have borne out that studio wrestling doesn't draw as many viewers as traditional arena wrestling. So then you have a slightly different problem, less people are watching due to the content.

But then you circle back to my original point. In either circumstance you're drawing resources and man power and brain power away from THE brand. It's dicey. And I'm not saying 100% for sure I'm in the right and have all the answers. I'm just saying it's been a year, they didn't get WBD to bite on a TV product, main line AEW has slowly been faltering. I just don't see the benefits of keeping this a brand going forward anymore. It's subtraction by addition.

I reserve the right to change this line of thinking if TK goes hands off and allows an infrastructure where it's a developmental brand ran by someone else. But as is, I've seen enough to call it. It wasn't a bad idea. It just didn't work out. And even in not working out, it was still worth it because that library is invaluable for the future.

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13 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

I'm not seeing anything before 2013 outside of 2011 and 2012 TV seasons. ROH on HDNet from 2009 and 2010 is completely missing.

And WWE has said repeatedly that their archival material was the least-viewed thing on the Network, so outside of diehards I'm not seeing who this would appeal to.

Did ROH ever release any of the older shows with edited music? It took a long time for WWE to edit the old ECW shows before they were released to streaming. That would probably be a huge undertaking if they haven't already started the editing process.

Click on the three lines and you'll see an entry for events. There's also TV archive which has everything. 

As for the music entrances are either cut out or muted depending on event. It sucks but I'd almost rather have that then crappy music playing over it. 

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2 hours ago, matt925 said:

Supposedly there wasn’t going to be roh stuff on aew tv going forward “other than jericho” but he lost the title so that would wrap it up. But they were supposed to announce some kind of weekly show, whether streaming or whatever. 

I never understood the criticism TK was getting for having ROH matches on AEW TV anyway. They've done a good at keeping it separate for the most part and it's no different from when they had Omega as Impact champ on Dynamite or the NWA women's champ defending on Dynamite.  It makes since to keep these ROH guys in people's consciousness until they get on TV.

I also think why people expect Ring of Honor to just get a TV right out thep gate. TK hasn't even had it a year and people expect to just have a deal out the gate

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7 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said:

Click on the three lines and you'll see an entry for events. There's also TV archive which has everything.

Just downloaded the app - no TV from 2009 or 2010

10 events from 2002, no full events from 2003, no full events from 2004, no full events from 2005, no full events from 2006, no matches at all from 2007, no full events from 2008, no full events from 2009, no full events from 2010

Hard pass

Also the app is produced by "ROH Acquisition Corp, LLC" so I was mistaken when I said earlier in the week that Tony owned ROH outright and not under an LLC

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AWESOME! Dralistico and RUSH have new graphics!  RUSH is so fucking awesome.  AR Fox and Blake Christian bumo all over the building for him.  RUSH is fucking killing Blake Christian and we all party and freak out!  Oh man, Rush and Dralistico are fucking awesome.  Blake Exploiders to TRANSITION TO OFFENSE!  AR Fox goes on offense and it's FUN!  AR Fox CRUSHES Dralistico with 2022 Swanton!  AR FOX WITH THE FLASHPIN!  Rush and Dralistico are infuriated!   Postmatch, Rush kills everybody dead!  ATHENA! ATHENA! ATHENA!  Well, THIS match is fucking awesome.  Athena punching out of the STF is fucking awesome.  GNARLY BRAINBYSTER after a GNARLY EXPLOIDER by Martinez.  Athena is obviously OVER in Texas and Mercedes finally embracing being a heel is good.  O FACE! ATHENA IS YOUR NEW ROH WORLD CHAMPION!  That was fucking great.  It's the King Of Texas, Shane Taylor!  Keith Lee, from Witchita Falls, shows up!  Oh man, is Keith Lee going to turn on Swerve and join Shane Taylor?  Taylor and Swerve are awesome in the ring together.  NASTY FUCKING LEGDROP BY TAYLOR!  That was fucking GREAT.  FINALLY!  TAYLOR AND KEITH LEE!  FUCKING K DRILLER ON KEITH LEE BY TAYLOR!  FOR TWO!  That match was a total trainwreck, but it was fucking awesome in how weird it was.  Shane Strickland abandons Lee and JD Griffey accidentally kicks Taylor and Lee CRUSHES Griffey and gets the win.  Shane Taylor is so fucking awesome.  

(Then I went to my daughter's birthday party.  I'll finish this tomorry!)

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Most of my thoughts on this are pretty much in line with the conversation NoFlips and Niko have been having, even the seemingly contradictory ones flying around in my head. Yes, I do think it could've been executed better -and I've long been hammering on the Invasion comparison, going back to when I rhetorically asked in a moment of hilarious fanboy overreaction if the 'lights out' Satnam debut would end up being AEWROH's 'Buff vs Booker in Tacoma' moment. I also think they should have tried to sell the show as 'AEW Ring of Honor' because I agree 100000% with everything NoFlips said about AEW as a brand, and it being without a doubt the stronger of the two in 2022. All of that said, I agree with the point that they 'failed' into a good to decent situation, and this is the most ideal remedy currently available if WBD isn't having it, and won't let TK shop it elsewhere.If anything, I think a couple of things finally get achieved:

1) The obvious: no more ROH on my AEW; it's finally over. 

2) a semi-low pressure chance to get it right in front of a hardcore audience that would most likely be the type to give it a shot anyway. If it takes off, great - maybe it turns into a mini version of OG NXT and the PPVs become destination events like Takeovers used to be

3) something I haven't seen mentioned much yet: a possible 'fix' for both Rampage, and the sometimes overly long taping length:

With ROH doing TV, if they aren't going to tour it independently (which would likely not be cost effective at first, though I really like the idea of doing block studio tapings like Impact, NXT, or Dark) then a possible solution would be to split the taping schedule into:

Wednesday: Elevation One 6-7 PM, Elevation Two 7-8pm/Dynamite 8-10pm

Friday: ROH Episode One 7-8pm/ROH Episode Two 8-9 PM/Dark 9-10 PM/Live Rampage 10-11 PM

The periodic Saturday Universal Dark tapings can continue as scheduled with an added hour of ROH Dark to expand the tape library, and beef up the Acquisition Co's value (like they did with the 8 hour Dark tapings during the early part of COVID).

Another added benefit for Rampage is that if they use the stage/ringside setup from tonight and Death Before Dishonor for those tapings, it'll help visually set the show apart from Dynamite (even for those who don't give a rip about ROH)

Edited by Zakk_Sabbath
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I like the idea of taping Ring of Honor with the AEW shows as it will at least "familiarize" the AEW fans with some of the lesser known RoH talent. The only thing that I won't like about it is the fact that you can't really separate the look of RoH and AEW because you're going to be using the same entrance set, ramp, etc. as you would for your main show. There has to be some level of separation between them, and I'm not sure how they could really swing that - but there has to be a clear line drawn between RoH and AEW and you can't have them feel like the same product.

Wednesday: Elevation 7pm-8pm/Live Dynamite 8pm-10pm
Friday: RoH TV 8-10pm/Live Rampage 10pm-11pm

The only reason I say that is I don't want everyone getting burnt out by the time the main show comes around. There have been so many times (including the show I attended last year) where the crowd was dead by the time Rampage came around because we had an hour of Dark, then two hours of Dynamite, and then an hour of Rampage. Four hours is just so much. Or, maybe expand that Rampage to two hours and turn it into your version of SmackDown which the roster can support now. Then you get an hour of RoH tapings and two hours of Rampage.

The benefits of taping RoH with AEW would be so obvious that I'm sure TK would have to be thinking of it. You have all your production crew right there, easier to coordinate schedules and probably much cheaper on the finances in the end. However, I can't recall two "separate" promotions taping shows back to back - even NXT never running the same arena as WWE - let alone an hour before the main show.

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From a production standpoint I have no idea how feasible this is. But the multi screen setup they use for the ROH entrance... I wonder if those screens can be on a raised pulley system. Its just video screens. They cant weigh a lot. Certainly less than the Wargames structure. Is there a way to raise up the ROH screens with a truss? Like you completely build the Rampage stage like they currently use. But you lower the ROH 6 split screens down and lock them into place. Then when your ROH taping is done you raise them and have the Rampage stage as usual.

Doing split Wednesday / Friday tapings is an interesting idea to think about. AEW houses have been tapering off a bit. Is the allure of taping ROH TV & a live Rampage (the clear B show) a viable draw on the road? I don't have a definitive answer for that. But I would guess you're going have a hard time selling stand alone Friday tickets as compared to Dynamite tickets for Wednesday.

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I'm glad I ordered the ppv. What more needs to be said about the Briscoes/FTR? This definitely wasn't a one match show. I felt like everything delivered and it accomplished the goal of making me want to sign up for Honor Club. I'm eager to see who the next set of challengers will be for the titles. 

Oh, and I'm so glad Jimmy Rave got a mention while Ian was talking about The Embassy. 

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23 minutes ago, Krone Meltzer said:

Wednesday: Elevation 7pm-8pm/Live Dynamite 8pm-10pm
Friday: RoH TV 8-10pm/Live Rampage 10pm-11pm

Yeah, this is the schedule I should have posted/proposed. I was mistakenly thinking of the two hour Grand Slam Rampage when I did the breakdown in my head, good call

 

11 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I would guess you're going have a hard time selling stand alone Friday tickets as compared to Dynamite tickets for Wednesday.

That's why I think it'll be good business for both ROH and Rampage. As of two days ago, WrestleTix had Final Battle at:

Available Tickets => 1,297

Current Setup/Capacity => 3,524

Tickets Distributed => 2,227

The stand-alone Dark/Live Rampage I attended two months ago at a casino in Nowhere, CT (which seemed super empty) was at:

Available Tickets => 1,593
Current Setup/Capacity => 5,388
Tickets Distributed => 3,795

That makes me think they might do well to combine the tapings. But, as mentioned, I'm also not opposed to running block tapings (not even necessarily from a studio like NXT or TNA, you could make them destination events like when Impact ran Manhattan Center for a week years ago, or when old ROH would do the tapings at Center Stage occasionally).

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My favorite part of Briscoes/FTR was right when you thought Cash was gonna yank Mark through chekov's table, Mark whipped right past it on to the even nastier chekov's chair pile. I let out an audible "Jesus fuck" on that bump. The match was every bit as good as I thought it would be, but that was a nice unexpected moment to put it over the top. I'll also always mark for the "double trouble bash at the beach bubble" screen. On that note, I was mildly annoyed at the Public Enemy/Nasty Boys erasure saying it was the first double dog collar match on ppv, but I'm guessing FTR being the students of the game they are looked at it, since the "clothesline on the chain from the hanging guy" spot they did early on was the finish to that match.

Much like the last couple of AEW-ROH shows, it was solid overall, but FTR/Briscoes were a mile above everything else.

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5 minutes ago, Go2Sleep said:

My favorite part of Briscoes/FTR was right when you thought Cash was gonna yank Mark through chekov's table, Mark whipped right past it on to the even nastier chekov's chair pile. I let out an audible "Jesus fuck" on that bump. Th

I agree with every word of your post, but especially this. Both men were silk smooth on it, too. That spot in particular, specifically was the highlight of the show for me, with similar third-commandment-breaking language to yours filling our living room. I'll actually double down and say it's my absolute favorite spot of any of the three dog collar matches in AEW/AEWROH so far (and I recall being super, super high on basically everything Brodie/Cody did in theirs, though I haven't seen it since it aired).

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