December 2022 Wrestling Discussion

[JohnnyJ]

20 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I would love to know if WWEN has driven Peacock subs.

IIRC, it's the one major streaming service that is unequivocally tanking based on paid sub numbers. 

(Funny enough, it's the paid streaming service that I get the most use from by far, as an aside.)

Arent almost all of them tanking in some way? It seems like all of these content producers saw what Netflix was doing and made the assumption that if they threw some money at a streaming service, they could replicate it. Even Disney Plus which is in just about every household I know isn't profitable. It does not look like the model actually works. 

It seems like with rights fees it's all about timing the market. WWE got very lucky with their last round and landed peak tv rights and streaming rights fees. The landscape has already changed a lot so it should be interesting to see what happens. 

What should be interesting is what happens with AEW. They've spent the last few years building up the roster/product for a tv/streaming deal which may not actually exist. 

[Curt McGirt]

Nikita and the R'n'Rs being a part of the Russo roster is hilarious. 

[Boydy]

16 hours ago, twiztor said:

OK, 2003 NWA-TNA is the absolute drizzling shits. i've watched the first 2 months worth of TV, and i have to say that this is, no hyperbole, the worst weekly wrestling show of my lifetime. There's some great matches, but all of the angles and most of the promos are just complete dogshit. I had my share of issues with 2002 (see the year in review post i made a couple months ago), but with the introduction of Vince Russo, the show has just fallen off a cliff. I'm no Russo fan, but i don't think i'm a full Russo hater either. But i'm in the era of "Sports Entertainment Xtreme". Let me run down the S.E.X. roster (also keep in mind that the group has only formed in the last 8 weeks):

Vince Russo
Raven
B.G. James
Brian Lawler
Nikita Koloff
Mike Sanders “Director of Talent Acquisitions”
Glen Gilberti “Director of Talent Development”
Disgraceland
Sonny Siaki “the Ace in the Hole” (w/Desire)
David Flair
Erik Watts
Ron & Don Harris
Hot Shots (Cassidy Riley & Chase Stevens)
Triple-X (Christopher Daniels, Low-Ki, & Elix Skipper)
Rock ‘n’ Roll Express

they're also teasing that AJ Styles and/or Ron Killings may be part of the group. that's TWENTY people. and what a complete lack of talent. Jesus, i would take the nWo B-team over these ham n' eggers.

/rant

Nikiti Koloff in TNA really?

I have no recollection of this whatsoever.

Did he have to retire cos of a broken neck in the early 90s?

[twiztor]

40 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

Nikita and the R'n'Rs being a part of the Russo roster is hilarious. 

 

16 minutes ago, Boydy said:

Nikiti Koloff in TNA really?

I have no recollection of this whatsoever.

Did he have to retire cos of a broken neck in the early 90s?

While the RnRs had a match or two, Koloff hasn't wrestled (yet?). He showed up in a mask (as "Mr. Wrestling IV"- Vince Russo was previously "Mr. Wrestling III") and jumped Dusty Rhodes and he's appeared sporadically since, not really doing much.

actually, that might sum up early TNA so far. some people showed up, but it didn't amount to anything.

[The Natural]

 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

7 hours ago, JohnnyJ said:

What should be interesting is what happens with AEW. They've spent the last few years building up the roster/product for a tv/streaming deal which may not actually exist. 

We've all discussed AEW's TV/streaming future to death at this point, but your post kind of makes me think of a possibility that I don't think we've yet examined (or if so, I've missed it/not been involved):

Is there not a possibility that NBCU says to WWE when their deal's up: 'Your competitor is consistently just a few hundred thousand behind you in the demo, and we can get them for probably half the cost... so, we'll see ya'?

FOX probably wouldn't go for it because SD does good numbers on broadcast, especially on its night-- but what if their hand were forced? I just read a rumor yesterday that NBCU might try to just buy WWE outright when their deal is up. If that happens, perhaps FOX decides they want to stay in the wrestling business, and makes the 904 call - suddenly AEW is in about 96% of American homes...

Interesting times abound 

[SirSmUgly]

7 hours ago, JohnnyJ said:

Arent almost all of them tanking in some way? It seems like all of these content producers saw what Netflix was doing and made the assumption that if they threw some money at a streaming service, they could replicate it. Even Disney Plus which is in just about every household I know isn't profitable. It does not look like the model actually works. 

It seems like with rights fees it's all about timing the market. WWE got very lucky with their last round and landed peak tv rights and streaming rights fees. The landscape has already changed a lot so it should be interesting to see what happens. 

What should be interesting is what happens with AEW. They've spent the last few years building up the roster/product for a tv/streaming deal which may not actually exist. 

I think "tanking" is relative to expectations. If you define it as "can't get paid subs in a significant way," that's Peacock. If you define it as "regularly adding subs, but can't find consistent profitability," that's Hulu/Disney/ESPN and Paramount+. If you define it as "oops, I guess growth isn't endless lol," that's Netflix. 

I think AEW is going to get that streaming deal because they'll be valued more like a sports league than a typical TV show. Live events, particularly sports, carry with them an endless stream of content and a built-in audience. 

[TheVileOne]

Sort of ironic the way I saw some old Matt Riddle comments resurfacing today, the ones that got him fired by the UFC. 

[SirSmUgly]

25 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

We've all discussed AEW's TV/streaming future to death at this point, but your post kind of makes me think of a possibility that I don't think we've yet examined (or if so, I've missed it/not been involved):

Is there not a possibility that NBCU says to WWE when their deal's up: 'Your competitor is consistently just a few hundred thousand behind you in the demo, and we can get them for probably half the cost... so, we'll see ya'?

FOX probably wouldn't go for it because SD does good numbers on broadcast, especially on its night-- but what if their hand were forced? I just read a rumor yesterday that NBCU might try to just buy WWE outright when their deal is up. If that happens, perhaps FOX decides they want to stay in the wrestling business, and makes the 904 call - suddenly AEW is in about 96% of American homes...

Interesting times abound 

NBCU and WWE have a longstanding relationship and Dick Ebersol is still a consultant for NBC Sports, so I'd say that the possibility of NBCU targeting AEW is low. AEW doesn't have half the brand-power that WWE has, either, so I think more than just looking at demos for weekly shows would go into the calculus even if there were a greater possibility. 

I could see FOX looking to replace their live wrestling show with more live wrestling and maybe getting AEW onto Hulu. That seems like it might be a reasonable fit, especially because there is sports programming on Hulu via ESPN+. You could slide AEW onto that app as a sports-adjacent addition. 

They can also use Tubi to push AEW clips on a free app with ads, like they used it to show World Cup stuff for free.

Edited December 21, 2022 by SirSmellingtonofCascadia
This board HATES me :(

[Elsalvajeloco]

It's funny that Disney was touting the success of ESPN+ (thanks in large part to the UFC), but then Disney Plus happens. You have a crazy amount of subscribers (safely assuming more than the competition) but they're also spending a crazier amount of money so they're losing a bunch of money. IMO that's what takes them out of the running for buying WWE especially when NBCUniversal is already heavily invested and could go all in.

[Pedro]

On 12/20/2022 at 1:38 PM, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I would love to know if WWEN has driven Peacock subs.

 

IIRC, it's the one major streaming service that is unequivocally tanking based on paid sub numbers. 

 

(Funny enough, it's the paid streaming service that I get the most use from by far, as an aside.)

For me Peacock is sluggish a lot more than WWE Network.  But, with Xfinity you get Peacock free. So knowing anyone with Xfinity/Comcast gets it free ( I believe Time Warner does also) it has to have some type of impact. Why pay for it when you can get it free from your cable provider? 
 

Wrestling wise I like what Fite+ is doing.  

TV and Movies I love HBO Max. 

[Cobra Commander]

I get the sense that streaming just saturated itself way too quickly.

We're probably still going towards a future with a lot of streaming but there'll be some contraction on the way there.

[zendragon]

52 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

We've all discussed AEW's TV/streaming future to death at this point, but your post kind of makes me think of a possibility that I don't think we've yet examined (or if so, I've missed it/not been involved):

Is there not a possibility that NBCU says to WWE when their deal's up: 'Your competitor is consistently just a few hundred thousand behind you in the demo, and we can get them for probably half the cost... so, we'll see ya'?

FOX probably wouldn't go for it because SD does good numbers on broadcast, especially on its night-- but what if their hand were forced? I just read a rumor yesterday that NBCU might try to just buy WWE outright when their deal is up. If that happens, perhaps FOX decides they want to stay in the wrestling business, and makes the 904 call - suddenly AEW is in about 96% of American homes...

Interesting times abound 

Well WWE is still the name that most people associate with wrestling so I would think that would matter 

 

7 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

I get the sense that streaming just saturated itself way too quickly.

We're probably still going towards a future with a lot of streaming but there'll be some contraction on the way there.

everytime I seem a new streaming service I think "there's only 24hrs in a day how much of anything can anyone watch"

[Cobra Commander]

a continuation of a comment I made in the WWE Network thread in response to a Bo Dallas/Michael McGillicutty match.

There have been 5 non-battle royal matches with Mike Rotundo and Curt Hennig in the same match

• 1986 AWA: Double DQ between Curt Hennig/Mike Rotundo and Larry Zbyszko/Ninja Go
• 1993 WWF: IRS and Mr. Perfect went to a 20 minute draw during a house show at the Rosemont Horizon
• 1993 WWF: Mr. Perfect and Razor Ramon beat Diesel and IRS in a show at the Nassau Coliseum
• 1997 WCW: Curt Hennig beat Michael Wallstreet in 50 seconds on a Tuesday Nitro
• 2001 All-Japan: George Hines/Jim Steele/Johnny Smith beat Barry Windham/Curt Hennig/Mike Rotundo

I dare to day that the matches were better between the grandfathers. There's Larry the Ax vs Bob Windham matches in 1969/1970, then they teamed together in Japan in 1970/1971. So that Curt Hennig/Barry Windham tag team existed for a variety of good reasons.

[SirSmUgly]

17 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

It's funny that Disney was touting the success of ESPN+ (thanks in large part to the UFC), but then Disney Plus happens. You have a crazy amount of subscribers (safely assuming more than the competition) but they're also spending a crazier amount of money so they're losing a bunch of money. IMO that's what takes them out of the running for buying WWE especially when NBCUniversal is already heavily invested and could go all in.

Yeah, Disney would have been better off just putting their acquired content up on Hulu rather than launching a whole other app that they'd need to make original content for on top of it.

Sony abandoned Crackle, sold it, and just became a seller to other streaming platforms. That was wise. Disney would have been better off doing that with Disney IP. 

[SirSmUgly]

37 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

• 1993 WWF: IRS and Mr. Perfect went to a 20 minute draw during a house show at the Rosemont Horizon

That sounds like a damn war crime. 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

50 minutes ago, Pedro said:

For me Peacock is sluggish a lot more than WWE Network.  But, with Xfinity you get Peacock free. So knowing anyone with Xfinity/Comcast gets it free ( I believe Time Warner does also) it has to have some type of impact. Why pay for it when you can get it free from your cable provider? 
 

Wrestling wise I like what Fite+ is doing.  

TV and Movies I love HBO Max. 

Did you get grandfathered into that with Comcast, or are they running that deal again? I ask because I could've sworn I read like six months ago that they were ending that. If that's back, I might have to defect back to Comcast, because I'm starting to get pissed off with YouTube TV.  At this juncture, the cost has risen to the point that it's just like having regular ass cable -  might as well get it from the same company I get my internet from and save a couple bucks, which was the whole reason I left in the first place. 

(Sorry for turning this into the streaming bullshit thread, btw - killing time before Dynamite...)

[Cobra Commander]

Quote

WWF @ Chicago, IL - Rosemont Horizon - September 24, 1993 (4,900)
Tatanka pinned Bastion Booger at 9:11
Mr. Perfect fought IRS to a 20-minute time-limit draw; IRS was in the Perfect Plex when the bell rang
Men on a Mission defeated Well Dunn following a spin kick by Mabel
WWF World Champion Yokozuna pinned the Undertaker at 9:16 after hitting him with the salt bucket
Diesel (sub. for WWF IC Champion Shawn Michaels) pinned the 1-2-3 Kid at 5:49
Bam Bam Bigelow & Adam Bomb defeated WWF Tag Team Champions the Quebecers (sub. for Rick & Scott Steiner) via count-out when the champions left ringside
Razor Ramon pinned Rick Martel with the Razor's Edge

at least the fans got to see Mabel do a spin kick.. the next night at MSG was sort of the same card, only with IRS/Tatanka going to a draw, Perfect/Diesel in the main event, and...

Quote

Jimmy Snuka pinned Brian Christopher at 7:26 with the splash off the top; prior to the bout, Christopher cut an in-ring promo in which he introduced himself and insulted the New York crowd before issuing an open challenge (Snuka's surprise MSG return after a year absence; Christopher's MSG debut)

which was a Snuka stint that lasted a few days around the time of the IC title battle royal. Snuka was the ECW TV champion during all this.

[SirSmUgly]

Those last three matches have potential, but the first three are trash status. 

Yoko/Taker never had a good match, but I'm not sure they had one that was particularly terrible, either. 

[Dolphman 3000]

14 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

which was a Snuka stint that lasted a few days around the time of the IC title battle royal. Snuka was the ECW TV champion during all this.

Slaughter was also briefly back in early 1994, so I wonder if Vince was auditioning backup plans for Hogan's replacement if Lex didn't work out

[Cobra Commander]

looking at History of WWE, Slaughter worked a battle royal in January 1994 and then there were cards like this in the summer

Quote

WWF @ Valley Forge, PA - Music Fair - July 7, 1994 (200)
Jim Powers defeated Damien Demento
The Mighty Doom defeated Little Leopard
Sgt. Slaughter defeated Quebecer Pierre
Iron Mike Sharpe defeated Glenn Osbourne
Heidi Lee Morgan defeated Rusty Thomas
Bob Backlund defeated Greg Valentine

That lineup kinda seems like a "WWF guys getting an extra paycheck" D show card.

Wonder if they had guys like Slaughter and Johnny Polo in the January 1994 MSG Royal Rumble because the Rock'n'Roll Express couldn't make it (unless RnR was gonna face someone else that didn't work that night)

[Elsalvajeloco]

9 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

looking at History of WWE, Slaughter worked a battle royal in January 1994 and then there were cards like this in the summer

That lineup kinda seems like a "WWF guys getting an extra paycheck" D show card.

Wonder if they had guys like Slaughter and Johnny Polo in the January 1994 MSG Royal Rumble because the Rock'n'Roll Express couldn't make it (unless RnR was gonna face someone else that didn't work that night)

I checked out of curiosity since I am pretty sure Damien Demento (hailing from the outer reaches of having a good match) was gone from WWF by late 1993. Cagematch counts it as an indie show and not a WWF show.

[Pete]

16 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I checked out of curiosity since I am pretty sure Damien Demento (hailing from the outer reaches of having a good match) was gone from WWF by late 1993. Cagematch counts it as an indie show and not a WWF show.

Hey now. Maybe Demento was no great shakes, but his shtick was absolutely top-notch. I saw him against (I think) Typhoon at a house show in Peoria during that timeframe and he honestly was one of the best acts on the whole show.

[Pedro]

1 hour ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Did you get grandfathered into that with Comcast, or are they running that deal again? I ask because I could've sworn I read like six months ago that they were ending that. If that's back, I might have to defect back to Comcast, because I'm starting to get pissed off with YouTube TV.  At this juncture, the cost has risen to the point that it's just like having regular ass cable -  might as well get it from the same company I get my internet from and save a couple bucks, which was the whole reason I left in the first place. 

(Sorry for turning this into the streaming bullshit thread, btw - killing time before Dynamite...)

I don't believe we were grandfathered in. We had Fios and switched over about a year ago. Almost positive they are still doing it. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

11 minutes ago, Pete said:

Hey now. Maybe Demento was no great shakes, but his shtick was absolutely top-notch. I saw him against (I think) Typhoon at a house show in Peoria during that timeframe and he honestly was one of the best acts on the whole show.

Yeah, respectfully disagree on that one. That said, Prichard said they brought him in because his gimmick worked on the independents. It didn't go over well in the WWF to say the least, and he was pretty damn lackluster in the ring. Not the worst in the WWF especially in 1993 (Mike Shaw giving up on giving a damn and Virgil come to mind), but he was near the bottom.