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Dynamite - 11/16/22


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I think it's a sensible take to realize that AEW still puts on good weekly wrestling TV but that the Tony Khan EWR gameplan ran out of steam awhile ago. Right around the ROH influx/Owen tournaments/iffy Forbidden Door build, the plot got lost (literally). Which, yeah, OK, these things have ebbed and flowed in all companies since ever. There is a chance that ROH already has TV/Warner-backed streaming and that this will be announced during Final Battle. If and when this happens, you move a third of the roster in that direction and you re-establish the talent your viewership actually wants to see. And you give the book to somebody else and let ROH be the pseudo-developmental its suppose to be. It was still a stupid idea to begin with, because if you were trying to sell Warner on another hour of weekly TV you coulda just SOLD MORE AEW 

What doesn't get enough attention is Tony Khan's "we don't release people" shtick. AEW trying to present itself as an anti-Vince workers paradise is a moot point by now. Fix the roster bloat problem the same way any other company would. Create a booking commitee. Provide writers for talent that wants it. I'm optimistic about the running of new domestic and international markets. The video game might actually work out. Hunter's greener pastures will fade as all things of that nature do. God damnit, two women's matches on Dynamite every other week. An AEW reality show could really elevate some talent that could use it, Jungle Boy/Starks/Sammy n Tay come to mind. This is all very fixable, but its gonna take some objective outlooks, several sets of eyes and hands outside of just TK to get there 

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2 hours ago, John E. Dynamite said:

This is all very fixable, but its gonna take some objective outlooks, several sets of eyes and hands outside of just TK to get there 

It needs Khan to step back at this point. So many bad decisions have been taken it is criminal; he clearly does not have a handle or proper perspective on this. A 40% reduction in viewership within a matter of months is criminal. Putting up 200k more viewers than NXT who televise a bunch of developmental no marks paid buttons (and 30% of Smackdown's audience) is criminal. The destruction of their live audience which was a boon for them is criminal. Every trend is pointing downwards. 

ROH being used as anything other than an invasionary storyline brand (which will never, and never was going to, receive a network television show of its own in this economic climate lest they destroy one of their 2 existing AEW shows for it). The ham-fisted management of the Japanese influx and complete botch of the PPV set-up and lead in. The egregious roster size -- data for which has been provided on numerous occasions which categorically show how mismanaged it is in relation to all other roster sizes for an equivalent period of television-time in American television history during whichever epoch you choose. The origination of new title belts and holders of those belts at a quite farcical track. General bungling of talent, booking management and HR (unbelievably seemingly including minor petty scuffles and altercations between non-combat performance-artists on a theatrical scripted network television show??).

Other than the continually strong production values (kudos to whoever produces those, because without them this really would be looking like bush league mid 00s TNA at this point), they have got wrong every single key decision of the past 12 months. The fetishists may have ogled, but every single big creative & commercial decision they have taken over the past 12 months has taken them backwards and it was very clear at each inflection point that every decision would take them backwards.

Oh hey, here's Jeff Jarrett to save the day. 

Edited by A_K
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I would say 8 months, not 12 IMO. Revolution was a high note, and you had sme clear direction there with Wardlow as your Next Big Thing and closure with Punk/MJF.

Shortly after that it all unraveled, a lot of it self inflicted. I’ve posted this a lot but I put a lot of blame on the Owen and the ROH stuff, which just completely ripped massive chunks of narrative out of the show in favor of matches for the sake of matches. 

Edited by For Great Justice
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14 hours ago, Go2Sleep said:

The simple answer is they put a lot of stock in CM Punk, and that stock has crashed like crypto trading company. They gave the dude their top belt twice in ppv main events, and each time he didn't make through the next Dynamite with the strap. Everything was lined up for him to be on top this summer, then bring it back around to cement a top homegrown, whether it be MJF or Wardlow. The downstream effects of Punk's bad luck and fuck-ups are being felt well down the roster.

I don't really blame TK for going all in with Punk, as that looked like a good idea all the way through the dog collar match, and honestly, this would be a tough mess to clean up for anybody. I think his worst decision in the fallout was going back to Mox as champ. He needed to take his vacation as planned while Danielson or Omega righted the ship.

Sweet Jesus, no. Centering their programming around the pretentious, self-obsessed nonsense that was that Elite dominance storyline was horrible. AEW would be in better shape if Kenny & The Bucks left than they would be putting the titles and building the show around them again. Danielson I could see, but Mox was drawing fine until a week or so ago. Is it not at least a little bit possible that NBA basketball is competing for a lot of the same eyes as AEW? If this is still happening 4-8 weeks from now, I'll believe it might be time to make sweeping proclamations about TK's ability to book a show and how dead the crowds are. Personally I thought last week's crowd was fine. Better than the RAW crowd from that week, even. Whoever said that a big part of this is because TK went all in on Phil is spot on. There was zero reason not to use him as an attraction, rather than trying to build around a 45 year old who can't stay healthy. Putting the title back on him was especially egregious. And now I don't see how you could look anyone else in that locker room in the eye if you went crawling back to a guy who openly shit on a lot of your roster. Hangman getting hurt sucks, and I do think it's time to bring Miro & House of Black back, but some of y'all are eulogizing a company that's had two bad weeks in terms of eyeballs on product. It'll be fine. 

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I get that people are complaining about broader things, but did they really not like this episode? I know I had little time to write anything up but..

  • The opening tag was great. Yes, it's a little stale, but there's also a ton of familiarity so guys like Danielson and Sammy who have wrestled a few times now can really mix and remix their spots. Both guys had awesome dives. Sammy vs Claudio was a fresh match up and in some ways, Sammy is the perfect opponent for both what Danielson and what Claudio want, someone who can go all out with them and bump huge for them and take all their stuff and let them base for him. Jericho had a few imaginative spots in here and got clowned by Claudio when it mattered and the Giant Swing with the bat was top notch.
  • I am a massive Swerve naysayer from Lucha Underground days but I think he's a very effective heel and he was great here working over the shoulder. Bowens' is somehow one of the best strikers in the company. His stuff just looks so good and they had the fans in the palm of their hands with some of those late kickouts, with all of Swerve's stuff looking so nasty, especially the dislocation bit.
  • The Joe interview could have been compelling but I really liked the pull apart, including the Dark Order getting out of Wardlow's way and the dive.
  • I thought Anna's antics meshed well with Toni. Again, Anna's doing six faces between spots and it's so over the top that it goes from being ridiculous to sublime and really highlights the sports entertainer stuff in the best way. Plus it's not like they weren't leaning into stuff and hitting hard.
  • And the six man was one of my favorite six man spotfests of the year. AR Fox worked his ass off knowing this was his big break and just hit everything so crisp and clean and Dante and Darius were both innovative and full of personality. The Death Triangle were mostly just there but they were fine and were in the right places at the right time with the right attitude.
  • And there was an Ethan Page match I don't remember, but I'm sure it was ok, probably.

This was a good show! That's a lot of good stuff. That's five bullet points of good, at least. The music video was fun too and it was great to see the crowd up for it.

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1 minute ago, Matt D said:
  • I am a massive Swerve naysayer from Lucha Underground days but I think he's a very effective heel and he was great here working over the shoulder. Bowens' is somehow one of the best strikers in the company. His stuff just looks so good and they had the fans in the palm of their hands with some of those late kickouts, with all of Swerve's stuff looking so nasty, especially the dislocation bit.

Based solely on this and Billy Gunn match I think Swerve is at his best when he's really going after a body part.  Gives some focus to his weirdo offense and it tends to make his stuff look a little less loosey-goosey.

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17 hours ago, Brandon Bones said:

The Acclaimed cheer me up.  But during the Bowens match commercial the announcers went full knucklehead just ribbing Jericho and going off topic.  That shit is going to suck being archived on an eventual streaming service.

If by chance you're watching with VLC:
Window > Audio Effects > Filter > Karaoke

Brings the joy of the live crowd to the forefront and drops out the okay to awful AEW commentary to a light squeak. It's absolutely incredible! 

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1 hour ago, Matt D said:

This was a good show! That's a lot of good stuff. That's five bullet points of good, at least. The music video was fun too and it was great to see the crowd up for it.

Honestly, man, I agree. It wasn't the worst they've done, IMO. I think it's just a situation like with the Singh debut (which I admit, I overreacted wildly to) where the closing moments kind of soured an otherwise passable Dynamite. Combined with shit attendance and an underwhelming TV number, I kind of understand the reasoning for all the hullabaloo. But to be certain, I am 100% with you on what you consider the highlights. 

I probably ought to go back and watch Storm/JayAS again on the broadcast, though - the live crowd (at least in my section) was not into it, and were honestly pretty disrespectful at times - particularly the asshole behind me who tried both a 'Jungle Boy' and a 'CM Punk' chant during it, and the group in front of me who just would. not. stop. with the sexual comments toward them. I mean, I'm not blind, they're obviously both beautiful women, but act like you leave the house once in a while FFS. I'll give it to @For Great Justice that we DID definitely suck in that regard, for that match.

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17 hours ago, Matt D said:

I quite enjoyed the Anna Jay match and think it's almost amazing how many poses/facial expressions/reactions she fits into a match. It's like 3-4 between moves. Tremendous stuff.

and I know this will sound crazy

and I know we joke about it

BUT

I kind of set that up to see if Bunny might actually draw in that spot, as she seemed to in the past, but when she got sick, he just didn't mess with the format because it was too late in the game.

That whole elaborate roll to set up the kick in the corner is great stuff. Also we got TWO uses of Tough Toukous Toni using the Aussie Super Seige so that was worth the price of admission on its own

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5 hours ago, Matt D said:

I get that people are complaining about broader things, but did they really not like this episode? I know I had little time to write anything up but..

  • The opening tag was great. Yes, it's a little stale, but there's also a ton of familiarity so guys like Danielson and Sammy who have wrestled a few times now can really mix and remix their spots. Both guys had awesome dives. Sammy vs Claudio was a fresh match up and in some ways, Sammy is the perfect opponent for both what Danielson and what Claudio want, someone who can go all out with them and bump huge for them and take all their stuff and let them base for him. Jericho had a few imaginative spots in here and got clowned by Claudio when it mattered and the Giant Swing with the bat was top notch.
  • I am a massive Swerve naysayer from Lucha Underground days but I think he's a very effective heel and he was great here working over the shoulder. Bowens' is somehow one of the best strikers in the company. His stuff just looks so good and they had the fans in the palm of their hands with some of those late kickouts, with all of Swerve's stuff looking so nasty, especially the dislocation bit.
  • The Joe interview could have been compelling but I really liked the pull apart, including the Dark Order getting out of Wardlow's way and the dive.
  • I thought Anna's antics meshed well with Toni. Again, Anna's doing six faces between spots and it's so over the top that it goes from being ridiculous to sublime and really highlights the sports entertainer stuff in the best way. Plus it's not like they weren't leaning into stuff and hitting hard.
  • And the six man was one of my favorite six man spotfests of the year. AR Fox worked his ass off knowing this was his big break and just hit everything so crisp and clean and Dante and Darius were both innovative and full of personality. The Death Triangle were mostly just there but they were fine and were in the right places at the right time with the right attitude.
  • And there was an Ethan Page match I don't remember, but I'm sure it was ok, probably.

This was a good show! That's a lot of good stuff. That's five bullet points of good, at least. The music video was fun too and it was great to see the crowd up for it.

I can only speak for myself (and I don't even wanna try and speculate how the minds of certain consistently -negative posters process information beyond acknowledging that it does feel nice when a one-off low rating fits with your personal crackpot theories; and also to admit that a very high rating - say them hitting 1.5 million or something - during this period would have given me a sinking feeling that there is no turning back and that the far more reasonable posters who want AEW to be more like the corporate wrestling on the other channel were right all along... this is turning into a very long parenthetical, but in fact I just realised that the low rating makes me happy in a selfish way which... which proves that you, Matt, were correct about "Tony K cares more about Gordi's needs right now than Gordi cares about Tony K's needs." Which IS pretty funny now that I acknowledge it as true).

Maybe Ii should have replied in the navel-gazing thread.

ALL that being said:

From my personal perspective, the issue IS NOT AND NEVER HAS BEEN the wrestling (per se). The actual in ring work remains a consistent highlight of my week. The wrestlers performing in the ring continue to individually delight me every Thursday morning and Saturday afternoon (my time) and for that reason Dynamite and Rampage remain appointment viewing for me. The only shows I regularly watch as they are happening, because the wrestling is great and chatting about it with the international group of crazed fans I belong to is delightful.

I have been less positive than usual about AEW for a few weeks now, but apart from a move away from a 90s Giant Baba-esque "almost all clean finishes" style and toward sometimes having multiple schmozz finishes on a single show (which is more of a booking thing) I remain 98% positive about the in-ring work. 

My deal is that I definitely feel a shift away from a more indie-and-Japan (and Mexico) focus into a more WWE-type of presentation. Maybe the shift is about 90/10 (when the "Codyverse" was the more WWE-ish part of the show) to about 70/30 or 60/40 some weeks with Saraya and MJF On Top and leaning very very heavily into merch and catch-phrases with The Acclaimed (who remain delightful themselves and who have been great in-ring) being examples of the more WWE-ish stuff. But it's not on them, as such, I'd like them all to succeed. It's a slight change in feel, in tone, in presentation. A shift slightly away from the delightfully weird and unpredictable and toward the mainstream. A slightly greater emphasis on names that non-hardcore fans might recognize. Perhaps a lesser chance of real risks being taken w/r/t who goes over and who gets pushed right now. 

We still get the deeply weird and very indie Orange Cassidy as one of our champions, but he isn't a featured attraction on the PPV, for example.

I don't think it's deniable, and the reasoning behind it, with a new TV deal coming up, makes sense. And I guess it makes me a bad person that I am relieved that it hasn't been a wild run-away success (same day US ratings wise).

But it ain't the wrestling.

And Dark remains delightfully weird and unpredictable

And we are getting Mad King's Dream Match in less than three hours.

Edited by Gordlow
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19 hours ago, username said:

All these hot takes and no one mentioned that, you know, forgetting to book an actual main event match probably didn't help.

In less hot take-ish news, FTR haven't had an AEW ppv tag match since last year's Full Gear. Yeah they don't run a lot of ppvs but that's still 4 straight where the supposed best tag team in the world can't get a ppv match to show that off. Based on the ROH shows it'd probably be pretty good, maybe let them do that on your biggest stage at least once a year.

They won the IWGP tag titles at Forbidden Door.

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Everyone is certainly welcome to feel how they feel, and I do understand, especially for people that were either extremely into the first few months of the promotion or the slapdash necessities (which breeds creativity!) of the pandemic era, which still sort of oozed through into the first few months of being back on the road in front of hot crowds.

Gordi, while you are the last person I'd question on the generalities of this, because you're open, honest, earnest, and wear your heart on your sleeve, I do sort of question the notion that Cassidy isn't a major focus when he got the Shibata dream match a couple of weeks ago (Shibata!). There is a sense, I think, of the PPV for the sake of PPV being overinflated in people's minds due to tradition when the real money is going to come from the TV deal, right? The benefit of the PPV, like I said, is matches that they can build to and matches that don't have commercial breaks. They already built to Orange Cassidy's big matches, first with Pac, and then with Shibata over the last couple of months. The ebb and flow just didn't make sense to force it on a PPV with a bunch of other stuff they built to (And maybe Shibata's schedule didn't either?). And they need to constantly have fresh matches. Khan's going to have to come back out with something fresh next Wednesday and Friday and only so much of it can stem from the PPV.

One of my first real interactions with AEW where I was really paying attention was being amazed that the Shaq match was so close to a PPV but not ON a PPV and thinking that was a really clever way to balance things.

FTR isn't on the PPV, but they did have a highly promoted match against Swerve In Their Glory a few weeks ago and will almost certainly have a big match against the Gunns soon and probably a ROH title match against the Kingdom at the PPV in a month.

Etc. and Etc. I guess I'm trying to say that even though there's a monetary value associated with the PPV, it's just not set up to be the be all/end all for AEW. There's a time commitment on a weekly basis as well.

Anarchy in the Arena was on PPV. Blood and Guts was on TV. Etc.

There are things that I think are totally valid and things AEW can do 100% do better, but it's also a case that people are wanting it to be something that it's not and that it's probably never been and some of the issues there are ones of expectations.

And Gordi, in your case, it's about things they can do weirder! So that's not even part of the argument. You're planting your own flag and more power to you for it.

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Tony doesn't have any problems. Y'all do.

Tony books for Tony. If you don't like your wife's new haircut, and she does, that's not her problem  - it's yours. 

Everyone else has a problem with Tony's booking/delegation/decision making. I've yet to hear Tony lament Tony.

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@Matt Ds point goes back to the changing nature of the business. For most of wrestling TV was the loss leader, You gave it away or paid for your slot basically as an informercial to get people out to the arenas. Then PPV came along and we slowly saw the focus shift from getting house show attendance to getting people to buy PPVs. For a long time WWE didn't even have ad revenue sharing. And it was incredibly hard to sell ads because wrestling is so low rent. Now PPV is less and less a thing and the TV deals are the big thing cause wrestling is one of the few things people still watch

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5 hours ago, Goitre said:

Tony doesn't have any problems. Y'all do.

Tony books for Tony. If you don't like your wife's new haircut, and she does, that's not her problem  - it's yours. 

Everyone else has a problem with Tony's booking/delegation/decision making. I've yet to hear Tony lament Tony.

I like Tony's booking. He likes longterm booking. He likes to give things time to build unlike what we were getting from Vince from years and years. Tony likes longterm build and storytelling. The downside of that is Injuries and other factors that may cause you for change things up. It's unfortunate Punk got injured twice and the other drama that forced him to have to switch the title several times more than he expected to this year.

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The concept of Tony Khan as a "longterm booker" is a remarkable misnomer. Was the "longterm plan" for Wardlow's MJF-led shine to be (predictably) worn off so that he would be fooling around with jobbers and bums within a matter of weeks, with zero direction recaptured since? Or that The Acclaimed were sat on for a very long time (one half of whom was suspended, even, for actually garnering a reaction as a villainous heel performing a piece of performance art on a theatrical television show) before the belts were rushed on to them ad hoc when the self-made momentum they had created could not be ignored? For Thunder Rosa's reign to drift off into inconsequential ignominy? For Page to have been jolted from the saddle? For the TV Title to have bounced around Sammy and Scorpio to the ineffectiveness of both? For "pillars" like Jack Perry and Darby to drift further and further down the card w/ more & more tepid reactions by the week? For the viewership & arena sales to both look like an axe has been taken to them? 

Exactly who has this "longterm booking" benefitted? Which talent have come out well on the other side? Why, 3 years later, does the debut show remain the most watched and why have approaching 50% of these viewers left the product in the interim? 

For the poster who notes someway above "Tony doesn't have any problems. Y'all do .. Tony books for Tony" -- this couldn't be more correct. Kudos to Tony. The mugs-game, it would seem, is in consideration that there ever was a "longterm plan" as practically every talent & storyline associated with the promotion falls further into the mire by every metric possible.

Edited by A_K
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Just finished a rewatch where I could really focus on it.

Opening tag was high four star wrestling with a lot of storytelling and a great, classic go-home match for this particular storyline. There was one interesting moment that I want to see if it pays off. Claudio did a save for Bryan where he crawled and head butted either Jericho or Sammy (that part doesn’t matter) and then lingered for a second before rolling Bryan onto his side. In a 4-way for the title, in that same situation, maybe he goes for the pin because the belt is what matters. Also, I want to shout out Sammy again for really embracing being a shitass heel instead of trying to be a cool heel. And again, he really is taking a beating, leaning into Bryan’s kicks and Claudio’s uppercuts.

Swerve-Bowens was another 4-star match that told a story and was a classic go-home match for this storyline. Bowens looked like a star, Swerve’s strange style is great because so many of his moves look painful but are also really dickish.

Then we have the trios title match. Someone compared it to the late 90s WCW where they throw 6 luchadors together and they just go out and run a CMLL spot fest. Except here we have two teams of brothers, one of whom is part of a long-running trios group that also holds the title. This was definitely a spot fest, but what incredible spots there were! AR Fox did things I’ve never seen, Top Flight pulled off some innovative tag spots, other than a slightly botchy Fear Factor everyone was super smooth and clean. There was even a very convincing hope spot after the run of spots culminating in Fox’s beautiful 450 splash.

After this, though, things went off the rails. Lots of talking, although we did get Wardlow’s huge over the top rope dive. Britt’s great promo expect it was a face promo when she’s still supposedly a heel.

Page-Bandido was...let’s call it deliberate early on (or plodding if you’re nasty). Bandido got his spots in and Page was a good base, but I don’t think there was ever any sense that Bandido stood a chance. Page has a very late ‘80s main event style to his work, which is a bit of sore thumb in this promotion.

crowd is starting to die a bit now.

Storm-Anna was fine, Matt D is spot on about how Anna JAS has really embraced the sports entertainment element, which adds a lot to the match. But the match itself felt like it was at 3/4 speed, and also never in doubt.

Mox’s promo was more good selling for the PPV. He’s a straight shooter, he tells you who he is, and everything he says about MJF is 100% accurate story wise (and shoot wise too). Crowd was waking up again, and then Stokely walks out and the sudden silence is palpable. MJF has to implore the crowd to cheer, but by then this segment has been killed dead.

It really was a tale of two hours, and maybe the show might have been better and hotter if the matches were scheduled a little differently.

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2 hours ago, A_K said:

The concept of Tony Khan as a "longterm booker" is a remarkable misnomer. Was the "longterm plan" for Wardlow's MJF-led shine to be (predictably) worn off so that he would be fooling around with jobbers and bums within a matter of weeks, with zero direction recaptured since? Or that The Acclaimed were sat on for a very long time (one half of whom was suspended, even, for actually garnering a reaction as a villainous heel performing a piece of performance art on a theatrical television show) before the belts were rushed on to them ad hoc when the self-made momentum they had created could not be ignored? For Thunder Rosa's reign to drift off into inconsequential ignominy? For Page to have been jolted from the saddle? For the TV Title to have bounced around Sammy and Scorpio to the ineffectiveness of both? For "pillars" like Jack Perry and Darby to drift further and further down the card w/ more & more tepid reactions by the week? For the viewership & arena sales to both look like an axe has been taken to them? 

Exactly who has this "longterm booking" benefitted? Which talent have come out well on the other side? Why, 3 years later, does the debut show remain the most watched and why have approaching 50% of these viewers left the product in the interim? 

For the poster who notes someway above "Tony doesn't have any problems. Y'all do .. Tony books for Tony" -- this couldn't be more correct. Kudos to Tony. The mugs-game, it would seem, is in consideration that there ever was a "longterm plan" as practically every talent & storyline associated with the promotion falls further into the mire by every metric possible.

A_K, do you like anything going on right now?

 

You really bring alot of hostility and that's all I ever see.

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