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The Montreal Screwjob: 25 years later.


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a few weeks after Montreal, the WWF went into the Carolinas and drew numbers

  • WWF @ Greensboro, North Carolina - Coliseum - November 22, 1997 (13,332 paid)
  • WWF @ Hampton, VA - Coliseum - November 23, 1997 (8,236)
  • WWF @ Fayetteville, NC - Cumberland County Center - November 24, 1997 (8,074; sell out)
  • WWF @ Roanoke, VA - Civic Center - November 25, 1997 (6,542; sell out)

Which led to the WWF scheduling Unforgiven 98 in Greensboro (drawing 21,427) and going to Hampton for Raw the next night (with WCW running the Scope which led to things). Probably the most notable things from that stretch of shows in November 1997 was the usage of a Bret Hart midget and Jim Neidhart being made to look like a complete idiot on his way out.

Maybe there's an alternate universe of the WWF marching into the Carolinas  with Bret still around and seeing the signs that the product was about to heat up going into 1998.

Edited by Cobra Commander
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On 11/9/2022 at 10:20 PM, L_W_P said:

The beginning of the end for WCW.

Bret Hart walking into that company should have been a massive, massive boon. Hart helping Sting kill the nWo and then building up a match between them to determine the 'real, undisputed' world champion was a no-brainer.

That Bret didn't win the title until almost TWO YEARS later (only to immediately vacate it) is one of the all time bonehead booking moves.

You had all the heat and hype that the super smark IWC/tape traders could possibly give you and you pissed it all away.
 

I’m going to read this whole thread but I had to go ahead and respond to this as soon as I read it because I have always maintained that Starrcade 97 was an even worse fuck up. It was also a screw job. It wasn’t as personal of a screw job obviously but take Starrcade’s screw job and everything else that went wrong that night and you have an even bigger fuck up than the SS. 

I didn’t hate the finish that WCW was selling. Bret coming in to make the 3 count after the match restarted would have counted fine as him helping Sting kill the NWO. The payoff would have happened and Bret vs Hogan could have easily been fabricated while Sting defended the title against Scott Hall who had won WW3 before. And Bret vs Hogan could have met it’s potential WITHOUT the title IMO. Obviously it wouldn’t have been hard to bring the title back into it if they wanted but yeah. 

Now obviously the finish WCW was selling wasn’t the finish we got. I can’t believe the nonsense they tried to pass off on us that night. 

Edited by BloodyChamp
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I think any Starrcade finish that was a prelude to holding the title up until Superbrawl was gonna be seen as a shitty finish

Even if it's Bret coming in to ring the bell with Hogan in the Scorpion and a knocked out Nick Patrick, only for the dispute to involve "is Bret still a legal referee after the end of his match" or "Hogan says that he didn't actually give up" or something

Now the other problem with having Bret be an avenging babyface in WCW is that he just spent the last 7 months as a heel in the USA. If WCW was in the business of logical storytelling in 1998 (which they sorta weren't) then Bret would gradually drift towards being a heel out of disappointment with the WCW fans/babyfaces (yeah, that might be too close to Sting in late 1996). But without Hart in the nWo.

They probably should have killed the nWo at Starrcade 97, or at least killed the original and had the nWo members in a post-split civil war with each other. Of course that's probably a stupid idea with the group still selling merch and making money. So if the Horsemen could have long long runs after being fresh, then it would have probably been dumb to try getting rid of the original nWo after 17 months.

Two of the bigger changes in wrestling happened so close to big shows that it inconvenienced the 'winning' promotion. Bret going to WCW before Starrcade 97 and the WWF buying WCW just before Wrestlemania.

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On 11/11/2022 at 1:57 PM, Hamhock said:

The way I always thought Bret leaving should have gone was:

Let Bischoff make the announcement that he was jumping to WCW. Since Bret was under contract with the WWF through the December IYH, you have him announce that he’s leaving in a month and taking the world title with him, unless someone can beat him before then. The month becomes a chase, with the entire roster temporarily turning face. And then he loses on the last night to Undertaker; he tries to walk out and the roster blocks him at the top of the aisle; usual stuff like that. Tombstone finishes him, then Taker drops the belt to Michaels at the Rumble in the casket match, and we're back on the same timeline without anyone being double-crossed, quitting, etc.

 

On 11/11/2022 at 3:52 PM, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

My revision? Do the double DQ. Have Bret start to give a farewell speech, which the rest of the Hart Foundation start to react badly to as they never got the inside word and why aren't they coming along.

Impromptu Bret/Owen match. Redo the finish to WM X. Did Bret let his younger brother win on purpose? Hart Foundation celebrate with Owen as show goes off the air.

Shawn beats Owen the night after when it's revealed Bulldog and Anvil are going to WCW with Bret and cost Owen the title.

Both of these are pretty interesting, but I don't think the WWF would have gone for either of them. With the first idea, I feel like you're building anticipation of Bret going to WCW... on WWF TV. With the second idea, I feel like you'd have WWF fans intrigued to see what Bret, Bulldog, and Anvil were going to do in WCW based on a story told on WWF TV.

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8 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

I think any Starrcade finish that was a prelude to holding the title up until Superbrawl was gonna be seen as a shitty finish

Even if it's Bret coming in to ring the bell with Hogan in the Scorpion and a knocked out Nick Patrick, only for the dispute to involve "is Bret still a legal referee after the end of his match" or "Hogan says that he didn't actually give up" or something

Now the other problem with having Bret be an avenging babyface in WCW is that he just spent the last 7 months as a heel in the USA. If WCW was in the business of logical storytelling in 1998 (which they sorta weren't) then Bret would gradually drift towards being a heel out of disappointment with the WCW fans/babyfaces (yeah, that might be too close to Sting in late 1996). But without Hart in the nWo.

They probably should have killed the nWo at Starrcade 97, or at least killed the original and had the nWo members in a post-split civil war with each other. Of course that's probably a stupid idea with the group still selling merch and making money. So if the Horsemen could have long long runs after being fresh, then it would have probably been dumb to try getting rid of the original nWo after 17 months.

Two of the bigger changes in wrestling happened so close to big shows that it inconvenienced the 'winning' promotion. Bret going to WCW before Starrcade 97 and the WWF buying WCW just before Wrestlemania.

Should have been the beginning of the end Starcade 97. Clean sweep by WCW as Sting, Luger, Flair & DDP work to bring down the once dominant faction. remember its best to leave a party while it's still happening. Maybe Hogan gets the belt back so Goldberg can beat him in the Georgia dome for the final nail in the coffin 

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14 hours ago, Petey said:

 

Both of these are pretty interesting, but I don't think the WWF would have gone for either of them. With the first idea, I feel like you're building anticipation of Bret going to WCW... on WWF TV. With the second idea, I feel like you'd have WWF fans intrigued to see what Bret, Bulldog, and Anvil were going to do in WCW based on a story told on WWF TV.

I think you're right, but also they ended up doing that with Bret anyway, which lead to a fall in the Nitro ratings (4.3 to 4.1). Putting heat on Anvil/Bulldog, at least with the benefit of hindsight probably doesn't do much for WCWs business and WWF probably continues as is with Owen unsuccessfully chasing DX through early 98.

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They could have done anything with Bret as long as it yielded a match with Hogan. My scenario without even the title would have been fine. Make it winner vs Sting if you want. Then you get either the big rematch or the Scorpion vs the Sharpshooter. They also could have sicked him on Hogan Piper style. He could have just showed up and gave a promo about what he really thought about 1994 like Piper did about 1985. Just so many possibilities. 

Now getting back to Starrcade for a minute, we have to remember that Starrcade wasn’t centered around Bret. He really didn’t even need to be there for any of the possibilities involving him to happen as soon as next month. He only ended up being there for the only reason anything ever happened in WCW from then on - to allow Eric to jackoff Hogan while trying to save whatever show they were doing. This show happened to be Starrcade and the 2 things just couldn’t happen together then. 

There was only 1 possibility at Starrcade - Sting over Hogan. I said earlier there were many possibilities with Bret vs Hogan. So whether it was 1 possibility or a many possibilities, WCW could screw it up. 

I’m not the WWF historian. Would it be accurate to say that there was only 1 possibility at SS? 

Edited by BloodyChamp
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In hindsight, it's surprising that Hogan didn't claim to not want to put over Sting, because Bret-Hogan was the money match people wanted. It's a valid argument, and you immediately set Sting and Bret opposed to each other politically. 

.....and then of course claim a knee injury when the time comes to actually put Bret over.

Edited by GuerrillaMonsoon
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6 hours ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

In hindsight, it's surprising that Hogan didn't claim to not want to put over Sting, because Bret-Hogan was the money match people wanted. It's a valid argument, and you immediately set Sting and Bret opposed to each other politically. 

.....and then of course claim a knee injury when the time comes to actually put Bret over.

If there's no screwjob, I could see Hogan trying to pull something like that. Even without the screwjob, there's still Hogan's issues with the physical shape Sting was in (which always seemed suspect to me that Hogan didn't speak up about it until the last minute if it was really an issue).

Edited by evidence
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On 11/12/2022 at 12:07 AM, Cobra Commander said:

Which led to the WWF scheduling Unforgiven 98 in Greensboro (drawing 21,427) and going to Hampton for Raw the next night (with WCW running the Scope which led to things).

Wasn't Unforgiven the show where Flair was driving around outside trying to get his lawyer to agree to let him appear on-camera to start a program with Austin

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13 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

Wasn't Unforgiven the show where Flair was driving around outside trying to get his lawyer to agree to let him appear on-camera to start a program with Austin

the story I remember involved them introducing "a great champion named Flair"  at that PPV (which would be Reid Flair with Ric Flair right next to him) which probably would have went over worse than the time that Sable was in the front row of Nitro in 1999ish.

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Hogan having an issue with the shape Sting was in was just something he came up with as damage control. The one gripe I have with Sting in this whole thing is that he didn’t challenge him to a lap around arena. That finish would have been thrown out quicker than a Nitro main event because Hogan would have been dying 1/3 of the way through. 

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I know there were reasons, but I still can't wrap my head around a.) why Vince wanted to get rid of Bret and b.) why the title was on Bret at survivor series if he was exiting the company. 

Bret in WCW reminds me of some of the AEW signings. If someone is available, you would almost be a fool not to sign him. That being said, there was never any plan or vision for him in the company. There were already so many top guys with massive egos who had the boss's ear.

As a teenager, Wrestling with Shadows was truly mind blowing. I had never seen anything like it. 

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9 minutes ago, JohnnyJ said:

I know there were reasons, but I still can't wrap my head around a.) why Vince wanted to get rid of Bret and b.) why the title was on Bret at survivor series if he was exiting the company.

A.) Vince straight up regretted giving Bret that big contract and was looking to get out of it before the ink was dry. I always wondered if Vince thought Bret would be loyal to him/WWF and renegotiate at a lower rate and/or that WCW would tell Bret their old offer is off the table but he's a new one for less money, which would cause Bret to stay for less money. Vince was also most likely overestimating Bischoff, there's no way Vince would have offered the house like Bischoff did to Bret who was in a much weaker negotiating position than before.

 

B.) Vince wanted to pop a butyrate and Bret with the belt vs. Shawn was the only way that was going to happen. 

 

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also the HIAC match had the stip that the winner was facing Bret at Survivor Series

going back to Summerslam, there was a bit of a "no way out of Bret winning the title" stip with Bret promising to never wrestle in the US again if he didn't win the title

not sure if anybody who'd know has told what the plan was with Austin post-Summerslam 97 if he didn't get injured. I know there's the scenarios with four way matches in December 97 and the such and the general concept of Bret/Austin at WM14.

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Bret won the title at Summerslam on Aug 3 1997.

September 8, 1997 - Vince McMahon and Bret Hart had their first meeting where McMahon seriously approached Hart about his contract. About three months earlier, McMahon had told Hart that the company was in bad financial straights and that they might have to defer some of the money until later in the contract. This time his approach was more point blank. He wanted to cut Hart's regular salary, around $30,000 per week, more than in half and defer the rest of the money until later in the contract period when hopefully the company would be in better shape financially. Hart declined the suggestion, because he didn't want to risk not getting the money in the future after he was through taking all the bumps.

September 22, 1997 - On the day of the Raw taping at Madison Square Garden, McMahon told Bret Hart flat out that they were going to intentionally breach his contract because they couldn't afford the deal. He told a shocked Hart that he should go to World Championship Wrestling and make whatever deal he could with that group. "I didn't feel comfortable doing it," Hart said of the suggestion. "I feel like an old prisoner in a prison where I know all the guards and all the inmates and I have the best cell. Why would I want to move to a new prison where I don't know the guards and the inmates and I know longer have the best cell? I felt really bad after all the years of working for the WWF." Hart had an escape clause built into his contract since he had so much negotiating leverage when making his WWF deal 11 months earlier, in that he could leave the company giving 30 days notice, and that he would have what the contract called "reasonable creative control" of his character during that lame duck period so that he couldn't be unreasonably buried on the way out. There was a window period for giving that notice and negotiating elsewhere that hadn't begun, so McMahon, showing he was serious, gave Hart written permission to begin negotiating with WCW and Hart contacted Eric Bischoff. 

 

October 24, 1997 - McMahon, before the show at the Nassau Coliseum, told Hart that the money situation in the company had changed and they would have no problems paying him everything promised in his contract. Hart told McMahon that WCW really hadn't made him a serious offer and that he really didn't want to leave but that he was still uncomfortable doing the job for Michaels in that situation. He left the country for the tour of Bahrain and Oman with the idea that he was staying with the WWF, but knowing due to his window in his contract, he had to make the decision to give notice by midnight on 11/1.

October 31, 1997 - Never one to work without a flair for the dramatics, Bischoff finally caught up with Hart who was basically incommunicado in a foreign land most of the week. Just one day before Hart had to either give notice or stay for another year, Bischoff made a huge concrete offer. We don't know the exact terms of the offer, only that Hart said of the $3 million per year figure that both Jim Ross and Jerry Lawler talked about on the 11/10 Raw, that "they don't have any idea what I was offered," but others close to the situation say that figure is "close enough that you couldn't call it wrong." Hart neither agreed nor turned down the deal, but gave the impression to WCW that they had a great shot at getting him.

Edited by GuerrillaMonsoon
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On 11/16/2022 at 9:43 AM, JohnnyJ said:

 

Bret in WCW reminds me of some of the AEW signings. If someone is available, you would almost be a fool not to sign him. That being said, there was never any plan or vision for him in the company. There were already so many top guys with massive egos who had the boss's ear.

 

I don't believe Bischoff had no intentions in Utilizing Bret to his full potential. I'm sure it was Hogan and maybe even Nash that got into Bischoff not using him correctly coming in. Out of all the top WWF guys it seems Bischoff wanted Bret the most.

I don't understand why Bret wouldn't have just insisted on having a match at Starcade. He was an enforcer in the Main Event of WCWs Wrestlemania. Did he actually believe he was going to be the most over person in that match. Even as a 10 year old, I was wondering why is Bret is always in his street closes the first few weeks on TV. He was slotted right in the NWO  not long after coming in. I could see him not wanting to get a reputation for saying no to everything but he would have been better off requesting to work with Benoit and the other work rate guys coming in. He came in with the belief that Bischoff wouldn't know what to do with him like Vince did but even if he did believe that, it's surprising he didnt come in wanting to do good in WCW to prove Vince wrong 

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As I remember watching it live, I was just shocked at what happened. In retrospect, Vince should have worked something out with Bret. The way the match went with all the brawling I think everyone could have lived with a double dq/no contest. But yeah the bigger impact of the screwjob is Bret going to WCW and the last two and a half years of his career being a mess thanks to inconsistent booking.

He had some good matches, but they were all for nothing. That was always my biggest takeaway from the screwjob. They had Bret Hart and did nothing with him.

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So looking at that timeline from the Meltzer recap of it. Would have been interesting to see if Bret doesn't take the last minute offer from WCW at the deadline. Reluctantly agrees to drop the title to Shawn. 

Fucks around with some midcard stuff with Vader or Shamrock at the IYH/Rumble afterwards. Shawn still fucks his back up on the casket.

Does Vince go back to Bret for the zillionth time and get Shawn to drop the belt to Bret to drop to Austin at Mania. Or does Bret continue to bide his time in midcard purgatory as the first logical challenger to Austin in 98.

Bret doing the honours for Austin and then leaving in early 98 was probably the right move given where the NWO split is at, and the Sting Hogan program is now largely off the books. Also by this point, Flair is out of the picture so they almost have to do something different.

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6 hours ago, Ziggy said:

I don't believe Bischoff had no intentions in Utilizing Bret to his full potential. I'm sure it was Hogan and maybe even Nash that got into Bischoff not using him correctly coming in. Out of all the top WWF guys it seems Bischoff wanted Bret the most.

I don't understand why Bret wouldn't have just insisted on having a match at Starcade. He was an enforcer in the Main Event of WCWs Wrestlemania. Did he actually believe he was going to be the most over person in that match. Even as a 10 year old, I was wondering why is Bret is always in his street closes the first few weeks on TV. He was slotted right in the NWO  not long after coming in. I could see him not wanting to get a reputation for saying no to everything but he would have been better off requesting to work with Benoit and the other work rate guys coming in. He came in with the belief that Bischoff wouldn't know what to do with him like Vince did but even if he did believe that, it's surprising he didnt come in wanting to do good in WCW to prove Vince wrong 

Bischoff has said he didn't have any real plans for Bret beyond coming in. I believe he couldn't wrestle for a bit when he first came in 

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