Jump to content
DVDVR Message Board

November 2022 Wrestling Discussion


Recommended Posts

50 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

The only NWA/WCW person who arguably didn't have a better run and should have been a star in WWF is Barry Windham in multiple tries. 

Blackjack Windham in 1997 looks like he ate 1987 Barry Windham. Kendall was his appetizer. 

I know he wasn’t a star but when I was a kid I was a big fan of the US Express, especially Windham

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, (BP) said:

Bret didn’t have anything even approaching a Royal Rumble ‘92 moment in WCW. 

when was the earliest possible date that Bret could have worked in WCW? because he would have made for a better World War 3 winner than Scott Hall, only he probably couldn't have worked in WCW two weeks post Survivor Series 97

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, (BP) said:

Bret didn’t have anything even approaching a Royal Rumble ‘92 moment in WCW. 

Yes he did: The Benoit match. You may not want to hear it but it's the truth. 

EDIT: Okay, let's break that down, because I don't really believe them to be the same either. It's really an apples to oranges comparison but in terms of accomplishment I think they are both huge career highs. The unfortunate part is his was born of the pain of the death of his brother and was a tribute instead of just a plain old wrestling match that was good for no other reason than that it was good. And that pretty much sums up Bret's career in WCW. I just don't want to see that match forgotten or swept under the rug because of its other participant, because it was fucking awesome. 

Edited by Curt McGirt
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

Yes he did: The Benoit match. You may not want to hear it but it's the truth. 

EDIT: Okay, let's break that down, because I don't really believe them to be the same either. It's really an apples to oranges comparison but in terms of accomplishment I think they are both huge career highs. The unfortunate part is his was born of the pain of the death of his brother and was a tribute instead of just a plain old wrestling match that was good for no other reason than that it was good. And that pretty much sums up Bret's career in WCW. I just don't want to see that match forgotten or swept under the rug because of its other participant, because it was fucking awesome. 

As great as it was, it was ultimately a non-factor in terms of his run. Sidenote: That Nitro in KC is probably one of the last watchable Nitro episodes from start to finish. It also features a pretty good Dean Malenko vs. Rey Mysterio match. Bad finish but still a pretty good match.

It seems like due to the nature and the seriousness of the Owen tribute match, they decided to tone down the over the top, nonsensical stuff that was plaguing WCW at that point. If they would have kept that trend, hell, WCW might have survived a few more years. Maybe longer.

That said, once that Bret Hart vs. Chris Benoit match happened, Bret Hart went back to being a guest star as opposed to being one of THE stars like he was in WWF. IMO I think Bret had a bit of confirmation bias especially if you have watched Wrestling with Shadows. To be fair to Bret, I think a lot of the guys who were making the transition from New York to Atlanta had the same attitude. I believe it was Scott Hall (or maybe Nash) who said WWF is a wrestling company that does TV and WCW is a television company that does wrestling. Bret felt the Hitman character died with the screwjob, and he left a lot of his passion behind. He never believed WCW was the place to be what he needed to be to succeed and apply his trade. Maybe he believed some of Vince's propaganda as well that all WCW was is Bischoff using Turner's money to write fat contracts. It's unfortunate that the only time we really got to see the Hitman was that match in Kansas City.

As for the Royal Rumble 1992 match, you literally had the best payoff you could have for something they had been building up since the previous September. When you think about the Invasion angle and storyline ten years later, you should realize they could have very well fucked up the real world champion thing royally. Yet, they got it all the way to the Royal Rumble the next year in Albany, NY without blowing it. Granted, as someone already said, Vince really didn't want Flair to be Flair. However, it succeeded in spite of that. You also had the gem of a moment from the one WWF Superstars where Vince gets physically involved in a storyline or angle for the first time. That itself was executed flawlessly. They kept planting little seeds. Then, when the Royal Rumble finally rolled around, there was some anticipation of what could actually happen as the WWF title was on the line in the actual Rumble. It does help that Heenan absolutely makes what was a rather pedestrian Rumble match honestly seemingly the most important match in wrestling history, as it should be when the goddamn world title is at stake. And Flair actually WINS the Rumble and as a result, the WWF World title. Finally, Flair proceeds to cut one of the most memorable wrestling promos of all time ("With a tear in my eye...."). You couldn't have scripted it any better. 

I really don't blame Bischoff that much for not devoting that much effort and absurd detail into something with Bret as Eric was already tied up with several hot acts at the time. However, the only way Bret could have had a modicum of the same success he had in WWF was to put him in something as serious as what he was doing with Shawn. Ironically, the best person for that role was Ric Flair. On the mic, they had a ton of chemistry together because there was a hint of realness, tension, and drama. Coming in as like this almost detached intercessor and third wheel for Hogan vs. Sting made ZERO sense. They made Piper with two bad hips a more pivotal and important figure than that a year prior. Just a total misfire on every level.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Octopus said:

Who had better championship title runs, HHH or Jeff Jarrett?

JJ was better as Cosplay NWA touring champ Ric Flair (early weekly PPV TNA) than HHH was cosplay NWA touring champ Harley Race (reign of terror) other than that HHH

@HayabusaI maintain that Regal would be mentioned among the all time greats if his personal issues didn't resign him to wrestling the majority of his career on the C shows, and to be 15  again and have the time to watch all this free Youtube wrestling like stardom 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jarrett is better because the matches are shorter in '99 WCW. 

Watching main event champ Jarrett or main event champ HHH is a wash. Both those guys have good short TV matches, but put them in a PPV and they're total snooze-fests. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

Watching main event champ Jarrett or main event champ HHH is a wash. Both those guys have good short TV matches, but put them in a PPV and they're total snooze-fests. 

Id never thought of that but you’re absolutely right on this. HHH PPV matches and 20 minute TV promos range from boring to horrid, but his TV matches were generally excellent. Jarrett had better TV vignette stuff and also had excellent TV matches, but was a channel changer as an in ring promo and his PPV main events. They’re very similar in that regard.

Edited by For Great Justice
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, For Great Justice said:

Id never thought of that but you’re absolutely right on this. HHH PPV matches and 20 minute TV promos range from boring to horrid, but his TV matches were generally excellent. Jarrett had better TV vignette stuff and also had excellent TV matches, but was a channel changer as an in ring promo and his PPV main events. They’re very similar in that regard.

I don’t know personally I think Triple H had four good to excellent PPV Title Defenses (or wins) in 2000:

Royal Rumble: Street Fight vs Cactus Jack

No Way Out: Hell in A Cell vs Mick Foley

Backlash: vs The Rock

Judgment Day: Iron Man Match vs The Rock

I’d easily take all of those over any Jarrett PPV title defense. Plus his (Triple H) work with Batista in 2005, and some of the Elimination Chamber matches (the first one in particular).  

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

Yeah, lets not pretend that pre-quad tear HHH wasn't the best worker in North America at the time.

I don't think he was, personally. I was low man on HHH at the time, too. 

1 hour ago, LF2 said:

I don’t know personally I think Triple H had four good to excellent PPV Title Defenses (or wins) in 2000:

Royal Rumble: Street Fight vs Cactus Jack

No Way Out: Hell in A Cell vs Mick Foley

Backlash: vs The Rock

Judgment Day: Iron Man Match vs The Rock

I’d easily take all of those over any Jarrett PPV title defense. Plus his (Triple H) work with Batista in 2005, and some of the Elimination Chamber matches (the first one in particular).  

I'll go ahead and be the outlier; the Rumble Street Fight is the only one of those that was good at the time and holds up today. 

He was worse post-quad tear, but I never loved him as a 20+ minute main event worker and will go so far as to say that he's only had two singles matches in that spot that I'd say are undeniably great: Foley at the Rumble 2000 and Bryan at WM 30. 

Those Batista matches in particular, people loved at the time and still do now, apparently. I found them to be deadly dull, though. That trilogy felt interminable to me. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not a huge fan of the HIAC at NWO 2000, and the Batista series were simply OK outside of the context of it being the best thing HHH had done in years.

Iron Man Match is a definite attempt at countering why the Bret/Shawn one was so bad, and I rate it for what it is, dumb finish and all.

I'd also add the Last Man Standing with Jericho at Fully Loaded, the Benoit match at one of the IYH PPVs in late 2000, Three Stages of Hell, the tag title switch on Raw as all being fantastic. The Rikishi and TAKA matches on TV were pretty amazing too.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Rikishi match is my favorite HHH match from that time period by a wide amount, and that's because it's eight minutes and HHH works it like an ace who is in trouble and knows it, but is still canny enough to escape with a win his title. It's the most NWA tribute thing he's ever done successfully. It's his "Flair gets his ass whipped by a returning Ricky Steamboat on free TV and makes you want to pay for a longer title match between them on PPV."

HHH on TV specifically had a good 2000, but he wasn't the best worker in the U.S. or really that close to it in 2000, IMO. He wasn't the best worker in his own company in 2000, IMO. 

Edited by SirSmellingtonofCascadia
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...