November 2022 Wrestling Discussion

[Ace]

I ain't gonna lie. I might make a point at seeing this.

 

[leonard]

4 hours ago, (BP) said:

Bret didn’t have anything even approaching a Royal Rumble ‘92 moment in WCW. 

Who are you to doubt the El Dandy promo?

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

Yes he did: The Benoit match. You may not want to hear it but it's the truth. 

EDIT: Okay, let's break that down, because I don't really believe them to be the same either. It's really an apples to oranges comparison but in terms of accomplishment I think they are both huge career highs. The unfortunate part is his was born of the pain of the death of his brother and was a tribute instead of just a plain old wrestling match that was good for no other reason than that it was good. And that pretty much sums up Bret's career in WCW. I just don't want to see that match forgotten or swept under the rug because of its other participant, because it was fucking awesome. 

As great as it was, it was ultimately a non-factor in terms of his run. Sidenote: That Nitro in KC is probably one of the last watchable Nitro episodes from start to finish. It also features a pretty good Dean Malenko vs. Rey Mysterio match. Bad finish but still a pretty good match.

It seems like due to the nature and the seriousness of the Owen tribute match, they decided to tone down the over the top, nonsensical stuff that was plaguing WCW at that point. If they would have kept that trend, hell, WCW might have survived a few more years. Maybe longer.

That said, once that Bret Hart vs. Chris Benoit match happened, Bret Hart went back to being a guest star as opposed to being one of THE stars like he was in WWF. IMO I think Bret had a bit of confirmation bias especially if you have watched Wrestling with Shadows. To be fair to Bret, I think a lot of the guys who were making the transition from New York to Atlanta had the same attitude. I believe it was Scott Hall (or maybe Nash) who said WWF is a wrestling company that does TV and WCW is a television company that does wrestling. Bret felt the Hitman character died with the screwjob, and he left a lot of his passion behind. He never believed WCW was the place to be what he needed to be to succeed and apply his trade. Maybe he believed some of Vince's propaganda as well that all WCW was is Bischoff using Turner's money to write fat contracts. It's unfortunate that the only time we really got to see the Hitman was that match in Kansas City.

As for the Royal Rumble 1992 match, you literally had the best payoff you could have for something they had been building up since the previous September. When you think about the Invasion angle and storyline ten years later, you should realize they could have very well fucked up the real world champion thing royally. Yet, they got it all the way to the Royal Rumble the next year in Albany, NY without blowing it. Granted, as someone already said, Vince really didn't want Flair to be Flair. However, it succeeded in spite of that. You also had the gem of a moment from the one WWF Superstars where Vince gets physically involved in a storyline or angle for the first time. That itself was executed flawlessly. They kept planting little seeds. Then, when the Royal Rumble finally rolled around, there was some anticipation of what could actually happen as the WWF title was on the line in the actual Rumble. It does help that Heenan absolutely makes what was a rather pedestrian Rumble match honestly seemingly the most important match in wrestling history, as it should be when the goddamn world title is at stake. And Flair actually WINS the Rumble and as a result, the WWF World title. Finally, Flair proceeds to cut one of the most memorable wrestling promos of all time ("With a tear in my eye...."). You couldn't have scripted it any better. 

I really don't blame Bischoff that much for not devoting that much effort and absurd detail into something with Bret as Eric was already tied up with several hot acts at the time. However, the only way Bret could have had a modicum of the same success he had in WWF was to put him in something as serious as what he was doing with Shawn. Ironically, the best person for that role was Ric Flair. On the mic, they had a ton of chemistry together because there was a hint of realness, tension, and drama. Coming in as like this almost detached intercessor and third wheel for Hogan vs. Sting made ZERO sense. They made Piper with two bad hips a more pivotal and important figure than that a year prior. Just a total misfire on every level.

[Unnatural]

 

found that match on daily recently and 

 

 

[Unnatural]

Ok, board problems  

[Unnatural]

it

 

 

 

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

16 hours ago, Octopus said:

Who had better championship title runs, HHH or Jeff Jarrett?

HHH. I can name more HHH title matches I enjoyed than I can JJ. 

[zendragon]

16 hours ago, Octopus said:

Who had better championship title runs, HHH or Jeff Jarrett?

JJ was better as Cosplay NWA touring champ Ric Flair (early weekly PPV TNA) than HHH was cosplay NWA touring champ Harley Race (reign of terror) other than that HHH

@HayabusaI maintain that Regal would be mentioned among the all time greats if his personal issues didn't resign him to wrestling the majority of his career on the C shows, and to be 15  again and have the time to watch all this free Youtube wrestling like stardom 

[For Great Justice]

JJ had one of the best “touring champ comes to your local TV” matches I’ve ever seen (against Jay Lethal). Then again HHH has one in that column as well against Jericho

[SirSmUgly]

Jarrett is better because the matches are shorter in '99 WCW. 

Watching main event champ Jarrett or main event champ HHH is a wash. Both those guys have good short TV matches, but put them in a PPV and they're total snooze-fests. 

[For Great Justice]

8 minutes ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

Watching main event champ Jarrett or main event champ HHH is a wash. Both those guys have good short TV matches, but put them in a PPV and they're total snooze-fests. 

Id never thought of that but you’re absolutely right on this. HHH PPV matches and 20 minute TV promos range from boring to horrid, but his TV matches were generally excellent. Jarrett had better TV vignette stuff and also had excellent TV matches, but was a channel changer as an in ring promo and his PPV main events. They’re very similar in that regard.

Edited November 16, 2022 by For Great Justice

[Dolphman 3000]

If you click through the thread he's posting translations as he goes - I had no idea one Vince-ism was "every other match on a WWE card cannot have punches"

Edited November 16, 2022 by Dolphman 3000

[John from Cincinnati]

Albert is mistaken. Wasabi nose is wonderful. 

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

1 hour ago, For Great Justice said:

Id never thought of that but you’re absolutely right on this. HHH PPV matches and 20 minute TV promos range from boring to horrid, but his TV matches were generally excellent. Jarrett had better TV vignette stuff and also had excellent TV matches, but was a channel changer as an in ring promo and his PPV main events. They’re very similar in that regard.

I don’t know personally I think Triple H had four good to excellent PPV Title Defenses (or wins) in 2000:

Royal Rumble: Street Fight vs Cactus Jack

No Way Out: Hell in A Cell vs Mick Foley

Backlash: vs The Rock

Judgment Day: Iron Man Match vs The Rock

I’d easily take all of those over any Jarrett PPV title defense. Plus his (Triple H) work with Batista in 2005, and some of the Elimination Chamber matches (the first one in particular).  

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

Yeah, lets not pretend that pre-quad tear HHH wasn't the best worker in North America at the time.

[Elsalvajeloco]

10 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

Yeah, lets not pretend that pre-quad tear HHH wasn't the best worker in North America at the time.

I plan to watch the No Way Out 2001 3 Stages of Hell match with Austin just cause I haven't seen it in forever.

[SirSmUgly]

49 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

Yeah, lets not pretend that pre-quad tear HHH wasn't the best worker in North America at the time.

I don't think he was, personally. I was low man on HHH at the time, too. 

1 hour ago, LF2 said:

I don’t know personally I think Triple H had four good to excellent PPV Title Defenses (or wins) in 2000:

Royal Rumble: Street Fight vs Cactus Jack

No Way Out: Hell in A Cell vs Mick Foley

Backlash: vs The Rock

Judgment Day: Iron Man Match vs The Rock

I’d easily take all of those over any Jarrett PPV title defense. Plus his (Triple H) work with Batista in 2005, and some of the Elimination Chamber matches (the first one in particular).  

I'll go ahead and be the outlier; the Rumble Street Fight is the only one of those that was good at the time and holds up today. 

He was worse post-quad tear, but I never loved him as a 20+ minute main event worker and will go so far as to say that he's only had two singles matches in that spot that I'd say are undeniably great: Foley at the Rumble 2000 and Bryan at WM 30. 

Those Batista matches in particular, people loved at the time and still do now, apparently. I found them to be deadly dull, though. That trilogy felt interminable to me. 

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

I'm not a huge fan of the HIAC at NWO 2000, and the Batista series were simply OK outside of the context of it being the best thing HHH had done in years.

Iron Man Match is a definite attempt at countering why the Bret/Shawn one was so bad, and I rate it for what it is, dumb finish and all.

I'd also add the Last Man Standing with Jericho at Fully Loaded, the Benoit match at one of the IYH PPVs in late 2000, Three Stages of Hell, the tag title switch on Raw as all being fantastic. The Rikishi and TAKA matches on TV were pretty amazing too.

[SirSmUgly]

The Rikishi match is my favorite HHH match from that time period by a wide amount, and that's because it's eight minutes and HHH works it like an ace who is in trouble and knows it, but is still canny enough to escape with a win his title. It's the most NWA tribute thing he's ever done successfully. It's his "Flair gets his ass whipped by a returning Ricky Steamboat on free TV and makes you want to pay for a longer title match between them on PPV."

HHH on TV specifically had a good 2000, but he wasn't the best worker in the U.S. or really that close to it in 2000, IMO. He wasn't the best worker in his own company in 2000, IMO. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by SirSmellingtonofCascadia

[Elsalvajeloco]

NWO 2000 with Cactus probably doesn't age well, but it holds a place in my heart as one of the PPVs I purchased in the height of my fandom. That and I loved the program.

[Brandon Bones]

 

Yep.  That was me.  It’s all true.

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

26 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

I'm not a huge fan of the HIAC at NWO 2000, and the Batista series were simply OK outside of the context of it being the best thing HHH had done in years.

Iron Man Match is a definite attempt at countering why the Bret/Shawn one was so bad, and I rate it for what it is, dumb finish and all.

I'd also add the Last Man Standing with Jericho at Fully Loaded, the Benoit match at one of the IYH PPVs in late 2000, Three Stages of Hell, the tag title switch on Raw as all being fantastic. The Rikishi and TAKA matches on TV were pretty amazing too.

I’d have included the LMS and the Benoit match from No Mercy 2000 (where Kurt Angle won his first WWF title at a show I was at) if they’d been WWF title matches. But yeah I’m not afraid to admit I’m a big fan of Triple H and the two tv matches you listed are favorites of mine. I also really enjoyed the Armageddon Hell In A Cell even if the ending with Rikishi was a bit silly. 

[clintthecrippler]

The point about Triple H being a damn fine "TV match" worker is well boosted by the fact that those watching in real time STILL remember the title defense against Taka Michinoku to this day, which I think may be an all-time "modern era guy working like an NWA Champion" match-up.

I do also think though that the No Mercy PPV (2007?) that started with Cena vacating the WWE Championship, Hunter beating Orton to claim the title, successfully defending against Umaga, and then losing to Orton in a bloody Last Man Standing match also somehow fell backwards into being "TNA-level overstuffed booking but done damn well and better than TNA ever pulled off". 

As champion main eventers go, I have to go with Hunter over Jarrett there. 

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

28 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

I'm not a huge fan of the HIAC at NWO 2000, and the Batista series were simply OK outside of the context of it being the best thing HHH had done in years.

Iron Man Match is a definite attempt at countering why the Bret/Shawn one was so bad, and I rate it for what it is, dumb finish and all.

I'd also add the Last Man Standing with Jericho at Fully Loaded, the Benoit match at one of the IYH PPVs in late 2000, Three Stages of Hell, the tag title switch on Raw as all being fantastic. The Rikishi and TAKA matches on TV were pretty amazing too.

The question would be then, who was?

Looking over the old DVDVR 500s - Benoit tops most of them. I think, while hindsight is extremely difficult in this instance, that appears largely on reputation from years earlier. Eddy was injured for a large chunk of 2000. Juventud, wow, I'll need to reevaluate, but I doubt anything he was doing in WCW 2000 made that seem realistic. Finlay was working garbage matches with Brian Knobbs. Has Jeff Hardy ever had a good non-gimmick match? Matt Hardy was solid but bland at the time. Regal was working sporadically. Daniels was probably a couple years off seriously contending here.

.....and Joey Abs.

[SirSmUgly]

All my opinion, of course: Benoit and Angle are both better w/r/t the WWF in 2000. Angle in 2000 and 2001 is great, like clearly becoming an all-timer, and then that 2002 Benoit Rumble match happens and it's all up for him.

Benoit's a guy I'm fairly low on compared to others, but he was too good that year to ignore. It was his career peak IMO.

More controversially, The Rock also had a better 2000. He was great week-to-week on TV and had stuff like the Kurt Angle title match and the Fully Loaded Benoit title match. He was so fucking good that year. 

It's very hard to parse WCW at the time, and I don't know that I can really say anyone was better than HHH there because it was a mess. Like, I love Booker and Scott Steiner, but no, they didn't have the output. I dig Shane Helms in Three Count and then as a singles, honestly probably enough to personally put him on a level with HHH - those Three Count/Jung Dragon matches were classics that no one remembers were classics anymore - but I don't know that I have it in me to make that argument. 

Also, Tajiri in 2000 ruled as I remember, to the point that I'd probably put him above HHH. 

I'm sure I'm missing some indie worker who lit it up in 2000, too.