Jump to content
DVDVR Message Board

November 2022 Wrestling Discussion


Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Log said:

Remember that period where every single goddamn wrestler thought they needed some stupid-ass catchphrase to shoehorn into their promos?

That sucked.

Hard disagree in the sense that even the lowest on the card dudes of the time at least had had audience participation going for them. A lot of what's missing today is getting the audience to participate in your act. There's a reason The Acclaimed are so over right now. And why everything was so over during the catch phrase period. I can understand if it got repetitive for you, but it a missing ingredient these days.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Hard disagree in the sense that even the lowest on the card dudes of the time at least had had audience participation going for them. A lot of what's missing today is getting the audience to participate in your act. There's a reason The Acclaimed are so over right now. And why everything was so over during the catch phrase period. I can understand if it got repetitive for you, but it a missing ingredient these days.

I agree on your point about giving everyone up and down the card something to do. It was just that so many guys were  forcing these awful catchphrases whether they fit or not. It's like now how every single wrestler thinks they need an elaborate pose when they enter the ring.

It's just a bigger case of where something works for some people and everyone starts trying to shoehorn that thing into their act.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

so i watch a lot of wrestling in my spare time. i like to watch complete runs, and do so in chronological order. Finished up a couple different years right at the same time (TNA/ROH was by design, as i'm watching them as complements, but WCW was completely coincidental). Here's my thoughts, spoilered for length or something.

 

1994 WCW:

Spoiler

this is the tale of two promotions.

First, the pre-Hogan stuff, which is compelling and interesting. Lastly, the post-Hogan debut. What an incredible downturn.

I'll try to keep this rant short, since it's from 28 years ago, but my gods. Hogan (and by association, all of his buddies) coming in completely ruined everything that WCW had going for them. I mean, all you have to do is look at their up-and-coming talent. Dustin Rhodes is so obviously positioned as a future champion that you'd have to make a series of boneheaded decisions for that not to happen. So of course, he leaves in early/mid '95. Steve Austin also gets fired in early '95, and i think everybody knows what happens there. They did everything they could to get Johnny B. Badd over and he still jumps. Would Jean-Paul Levesque develop into a top talent? We'll never know since he leaves too. And who do we replace them with? Avalanche, Brother Bruti/Brutus the Barber/Butcher, Honky Tonk Man, and fucking Jim Duggan. no thanks.

Hot Take: Spring Stampede '94 is not an all-time great event. does a single match end clean? Another time limit draw title defense from Regal? ugh. Austin/Muta was shaping up to be decent until the DQ. no shade for the Cactus/Maxx-Nasties brawl though, that was a great match. Sting-Rude was fun but again marred by an outside interference finish. Vader-Bossman was pretty meh. Flair-Steamboat was a high quality match that ONCE AGAIN was ruined by a non-finish. This time the dreaded "double pin" that caused any reasonable person to just scoff. so, some good to great matches but complete dogshit finishes.

WCW must have a lot of faith on Steven Regal, since he works pretty high profile matches with both an un-retired Larry Zybszko and the legendary Antonio Inoki. the latter i was intrigued by, the former i couldn't care less about. Larry Z is not good at commentary and i am deeply curious how he held on to that job for as long as he did. 

why WCW hasn't done more with Brian Pillman i don't know. He starts off the year at the tail end of a feud with Steve Austin, and then just.....meanders along sporadically for the rest of the year. Was there an injury keeping him off TV? 

i'm watching WCW a bit differently, in that for the TV shows i pay enough attention to track results, but unless there's an intriguing matchup, i don't give it my full attention. But i'm also cranking through all of the B- and C-shows, so it's just an endless onslaught of squashes. I'm also watching the full year, but then jumping backwards. For example, now that i've finished 1994, i'll be starting up at January 1993. 

2002 NWA-TNA:

Spoiler

what a mixed bag. i enjoyed some of the early stuff, even though it was wildly hit-and-miss. Ken Shamrock was a decent choice for the first champ. Ron Killings had a couple really great promos leading up to his reign, which was fine but never hit that next gear. I was continually confused by the TNA crowd that would chant "overrated" at Killings, since i don't remember him being particularly hyped at the time. Again, those promos were pretty excellent, but everything else was just above average. 

There's too much Jeff Jarrett. Yes, i know that it's his promotion, and that it's only going to get worse. I also know that he was arguably the biggest star the promotion had. But for the first 20+ weeks, they basically were just telling the story of how Jarrett getting/earning/whatever his title shot. Then the match where he beat Killings for the belt must have been the most TNA match ever. two ref bumps, run-ins, weapon shots, and a somewhat screwjob ending. Look, if you're telling this story of the heel's ascent, that's fine, but then DELIVER. it didn't help that the match was realistically heel vs heel. the rematch a week or two later was much better but still had issues.

the X-Division is definitely a highlight. Not really a fan of them hotshotting the title around so quickly (there's been 7 reigns in 6 months) but they're doing the right thing by highlighting the faster pace and high flying antics of these guys. AJ Styles and Jerry Lynn made a great pairing to kick us off, with Low-Ki also playing a large part early but then randomly disappearing. Shout out to Amazing Red for being awesome too.

the Tag Team division is also a weird mix. the first champs are AJ Styles & Jerry Lynn, who are partners while feuding over the X-Title. Of course, the titles are vacated after a double pin vs. Jarrett & Killings. So we're going to crown new champs with a Gauntlet for the Gold. Which doesn't involve ANY OF THE 4 involved in the holdup. what? anyway, America's Most Wanted have a pretty decent little run with the belts, and i'm even behind the Disciples of the New Church (Brian Lee & Slash/Wolfie D). the Harris Brothers are of course also involved, but the less said about them the better. The tag belts are definitely the least important of the 3 titles.

Brian Christopher/Lawler sucks. just all around. His promos are atrocious and his in-ring is poor. His angle with his girlfriend, April, who's openly cheating on him with just about everybody she can find, is terrible. get this guy off tv!

the stuff with Bruce (Alan Funk) winning the "Miss TNA" contest is fucking stupid and a complete waste of TV. this has been the only stuff i'm fast forwarding (which i think says a lot)

there's so much random stupidity in the first couple months. the Dupp Cup is a confusing uninteresting mess. the midget stuff is off-the-walls dumb. Sonny Siaki is a poor imitation of Juventud Guerrera doing a poor imitation of the Rock. 

on the other hand, backstage interviewer Goldylocks is put in these ridiculous situations with angles that have no chance of getting over, but somehow holds everything together. her facial expressions (mostly disgust) are absolutely fabulous. i've enjoyed the short runs of Scott Hall, Syxx-Pac, and Curt Hennig. Although they're all pale comparisons to prior runs they've had, they all carry their roles well.

i know there's so much more going on, but i'm already actively trying to forget that i watched some of this stuff.

2002 ROH:

Spoiler

Low-Ki vs. Samoa Joe was, for a long time, my favorite match ever. I'd still rate it really high. 

the main commentator Chris Levy is not great. He's not terrible, but definitely doesn't add to the matches in the way your lead announcer should. the rotating 2nd announcer isn't a great look either. For what it's worth, i liked both Steve Corino and @Gorman in their roles.

It goes without saying that the in-ring work is excellent. Bryan Danielson, Low-Ki, and Christopher Daniels have already put on some tremendous matches. i'm not really a fan of the ROH "Scramble" matches because it definitely isn't telling any sort of story. Just moves and dives and moves and dives for 25 minutes. my focus tends to drift in and out the most with these matches. As a whole, i feel like the ROH matches could be shortened up. the average match length is a bit longer than my attention span. One of the reasons i held off watching ROH for so long was because i wasn't interested in every match being a 45 minute "classic". i'm glad to say, that hasn't really been how the shows have been, although there is still some truth in that reputation.

the Prophecy stuff with Daniels has been good, but has a ways to go before it's great. i do like the monetary association with Samoa Joe and look forward to that paying off (pun intended) in the future. For the largest heel group that holds all the belts, they still feel pretty inconsequential. Xavier as the champion was something that intrigued me, because i wasn't familiar with him at all as he seemingly never has a big run elsewhere. But it also just doesn't feel as important as it should. 

Steve Corino has been less of a presence than i expected on these cards. From commentary on the first event or two, and finally stepping in the ring in a big way at Final Battle, but he just seems to play a minor role otherwise. That being said, his feud with Homicide has been heating up and i can't wait to see where it leads.

i just can't get behind the Maximos and Divine Storm teams. i don't know if it's their height, their physique, their storytelling, their non promos, or what, but these 4 guys just do nothing for me. 

on the opposite end of the spectrum, i can't get enough of Spanky/Brian Kendrick, Michael Shane, and Paul London (please don't die!) in any combination, these guys are putting together compelling matches. CM Punk and Colt Cabana are just debuting and feuding. Watching with 2022 eyes really puts a different spin on their perspectives.

that's a lot of typing. 

  • Like 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excellent, excellent write-ups, @twiztor . TNA was just so beyond bizarre in that first year. With the NWA/Jarrett's involvement, I kind of thought at the time that we would be getting something a little more old school flavored (like pre-pandemic Powerrr, maybe slightly modernized) so imagine my surprise when we got Ed Ferrera with white guy dreads and a little person tuggin' it in a trashcan instead. 

Re: ROH - the Homicide/Corino match you're on your way to is awesome! I think it was August '03 so you've got a ways to go yet. There's also a very underrated Joe/Punk match on the same show that doesn't get enough attention because of the subsequent trilogy. It was both the first ROH event I attended, and my first exposure to either guy, and it remains one of my favorite live experience memories.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, twiztor said:

1994 WCW:

Kevin Nash said on his podcast that WCW Saturday Night was appointment television for The Kliq during that period, and that Terra Ryzing was their favorite wrestler.

If you look at who came over to WWE in 1995-1996 (HHH, Austin, Mero, Pillman, Vader, Foley, Goldust, Godwinns, Man Mountain Rock), it's wild to think none of them would have got spots if the Kliq hadn't been marks for them beforehand

Edited by Dolphman 3000
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: WCW its interesting to think if no Hogan does WCW survive? Bishoff has claimed he had to make it make money or the plug was pulled.

HHH has said he always planned to use WCW to get to WWF

I would assume Larry Z hung around for so long as he was an old AWA pal of Bishoff (I would assume a lot of AWA types like Mike Enos and Madusa ended up in WCW for the same reason)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Log said:

Everything that came out of Konan’s mouth. In fact, I’d say he’s the worst since he didn’t even attempt coherent promos. He’d just rattle off catchphrases. 

God, I couldn't even stand "Yo yo yo let me speak on this," and that's literally nothing as far as catchphrases are concerned.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, zendragon said:

Re: WCW its interesting to think if no Hogan does WCW survive? Bishoff has claimed he had to make it make money or the plug was pulled.

Between XWF and TNA it's clear the former WCW crew saw the value in the free Orlando tapings. So I'd think if WCW dies in 1995 that Bischoff and/or Dusty would have attempted an offshoot soon after with the same setup.

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, zendragon said:

The question the would be... could they get TV? Until recently TV was the loss leader in wrestling.

Flair-Hogan still would have drawn in the US, and Vince wouldn't have had money for either guy in 1995-1996. Hogan would have stayed in Japan. Flair I'm not sure.

If Hogan never comes to WCW I'm not sure Bischoff makes the AAA connection with broadcasting their "When Worlds Collide" show, and who knows if Eddy/Mysterio/etc. ever come to the United States after that.

Would Heyman have stuck with ECW, or would he have left and tried to help Bischoff/Dusty with a theoretical #2 promotion?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Log said:

I agree on your point about giving everyone up and down the card something to do. It was just that so many guys were  forcing these awful catchphrases whether they fit or not. It's like now how every single wrestler thinks they need an elaborate pose when they enter the ring.

 

It's more obvious in WWE and NXT, Some of those catch phases didn't bother me till towards the end of the Attitude era when they started be micromanaging with everyone's verbiage. Atleast the product as a whole was so hot the crowd ate up everyone's catch phase no matter how stupid some of them were.  Most of them were stuff the talent came up with 

 

1 hour ago, zendragon said:

Re: WCW its interesting to think if no Hogan does WCW survive? Bishoff has claimed he had to make it make money or the plug was pulled.

 

Based on what I've been learning from different podcasts on WCW. It seemed like WCW was always an executive regime change away from going out of business from the beginning of being on Turner in '90. Hogan did turn around business even though you can also say he also hurt alot of WCWs essence early on. If Bischoff was better at pulling back Hogan's insistence on trying to recreate mid to late 80s early 90s WWF in WCW those first few years, then WCW would have been much better. Say what you will about Bischoff,  but I think he had some great ideas and did alot on different things that WCW needed even Pre Nitro. I think appeasing Hogan and later Nash and Hall limited Eric. Eric never wanted Warrior but he even signed him to appease Hulk. He brought in Honky whom he wasn't a fan. I believe him when he says he wasn't a fan of Shawn Michaels but I don't believe Bischoff wouldn't have bought him in if he had been available especially with Nash in WCW. I'm sure it was a ton of guys he brought in only because of Hulk or Nash or someone else he was close to wanted in that he wasn't a fan of. Heck he says he wasn't crazy about bringing Lex back if it wasn't for Sting.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Hogan never comes to WCW...

Does Savage still come? Could Savage/Sting/Dustin was lead babyfaces work against against next generation Horsemen led by Flair? Like Arn/Austin/Benoit? Do the Steiners come back earlier? 

Things that make you go hmmmmm

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Infinit said:

If Hogan never comes to WCW...

Does Savage still come?

Doubt it - if Vince told Randy to stay on commentary but there was no guaranteed money in WCW, he'd probably work out some deal to wrestle in Japan

Then you'd have Hogan/Savage/Flair all working New Japan - maybe those 3 guys take the Elite path and form their own US promotion. Or maybe New Japan starts running US shows at that point since they had the top American draws.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You see Flair leaving WCW if Hogan never comes in ? Flair tolerated alot of bad politics in WCW. I'm sure Japan would love him obviously but I don't see Flair leaving WCW. He had a chance to come back to WWF in '98 right? The same time he had real heat with Bischoff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When you think about it - Bischoff had no real competition for his spot when you consider:

- Turner's heat with Vince

- Heyman being ex-communicated after he committed fraud against TBS.

- The Bill Watts PR debacle with Hank Aaron/pissing out of his office window that pretty much guaranteed they'd never consider one of the boys for an executive position.

The only other person who may have possibly been considered would have been in the business was Jerry Jarrett you'd think? No other Time Warner executive really wanted the job, I suspect Bill Busch took the job reluctantly. Bischoff only really became a problem when he decided that his success turning around WCW warranted a higher executive position in the new merged company, and subsequently ended up making enemies (mostly around the necessity of, and budget of Thunder) that found him too much of a nuisance to justify keeping him around. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't see a world where Eric doesn't try to bring in Hulk if he is in power. It just makes all the sense in the world if it's a reduced schedule and flexible where Hulk can shoot films while wrestling occasionally. If Hulk had success in films on the level of John Cena or a Dave Bautista, I could see him turning Eric down. However, the only thing driving even a low level B movie/pilot season career is the fact he was a famous wrestler. No wrestling career = no career in film/TV. Part of me believes that the WCW/Hulk deal was extremely mutual in that WCW would keep his outside aspirations alive and Hulk's remaining fame in wrestling would keep WCW alive. Goddamn if it didn't work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there a different set of circumstances where Thunder In Paradise isn't cancelled after one season?

Imagine if Hogan comes into WCW and he has the same sort of set up he had in WWF from 92-93. Does a one off match against Vader. Maybe a tag with Sting against Flair and Arn. 

He's not around enough to try and get his friends into the company, the fans aren't as tired as they are of his act by mid 1995, he's still got some novelty value to him with fresh matchups. There's probably still that arms length relationship that allows for Nitro to get ticked off using that name recognition, and probably for Savage to come across also. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

Is there a different set of circumstances where Thunder In Paradise isn't cancelled after one season?

Imagine if Hogan comes into WCW and he has the same sort of set up he had in WWF from 92-93. Does a one off match against Vader. Maybe a tag with Sting against Flair and Arn. 

He's not around enough to try and get his friends into the company, the fans aren't as tired as they are of his act by mid 1995, he's still got some novelty value to him with fresh matchups. There's probably still that arms length relationship that allows for Nitro to get ticked off using that name recognition, and probably for Savage to come across also. 

The part timer thing similar to his final years in WWF is a damned if you do and damned if you don't. I think just occasionally popping up really hurt his popularity more than the overall staleness. Plus, his shadow loomed so large over the promotion that it kinda stunted the WWF transition away from that past generation specifically Hulk Hogan. Also, as the 90s rolled on, the thing would be the get the most dates out of Hulk possible on a reduced schedule. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

Kevin Nash said on his podcast that WCW Saturday Night was appointment television for The Kliq during that period, and that Terra Ryzing was their favorite wrestler.

If you look at who came over to WWE in 1995-1996 (HHH, Austin, Mero, Pillman, Vader, Foley, Goldust, Godwinns, Man Mountain Rock), it's wild to think none of them would have got spots if the Kliq hadn't been marks for them beforehand

Are you saying that Michaels, Hall and Nash dictated the hiring of wrestling talent in 1995-96?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Ziggy said:

You see Flair leaving WCW if Hogan never comes in ? Flair tolerated alot of bad politics in WCW. I'm sure Japan would love him obviously but I don't see Flair leaving WCW. He had a chance to come back to WWF in '98 right? The same time he had real heat with Bischoff.

Its more the possibility that WCW collapses without Hogan coming in.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...