MLB OFFSEASON (P&C Report 2/14/23)

[Tabe]

5 hours ago, supremebve said:

Yeah, I was trying to figure out where he ranked among 3rd basemen that I remember, and I don't think I would have voted for him.  Arod, Adrian Beltre, Boggs, Brett, Chipper Jones, Edgar Martinez, Molitor, Schmidt...and current guys like Jose Ramirez and Nolan Arenado are all guys I think were just plain better than him.  Rolen was very good, but I don't think I would have ever called him great.  It would be one thing if guys like Rolen got in because every player better than him was in, and they needed to expand the field to keep putting guys in, but there is about a decade and a half of dudes better than him who aren't in the Hall of Fame and it doesn't make sense to put him above better players.  

It's pretty clear from your list that you're mostly ignoring defense.  That's generally what people do when they think about whether a guy was great or not. Your list includes Edgar Martinez - Edgar was so bad he stopped playing defense entirely. Molitor was awful, too. 

Rolen wasn't. 

8 Gold Gloves on top of 300 homers. The list of guys that have done that is Schmidt and Rolen. That's it. Arenado will be added this year. 

That tells me Rolen is in pretty rarefied air and probably belongs in the Hall. 

[RIPPA]

 

[odessasteps]

I had to look up how many Brooks had (268). #biased

[supremebve]

43 minutes ago, Tabe said:

It's pretty clear from your list that you're mostly ignoring defense.  That's generally what people do when they think about whether a guy was great or not. Your list includes Edgar Martinez - Edgar was so bad he stopped playing defense entirely. Molitor was awful, too. 

Rolen wasn't. 

8 Gold Gloves on top of 300 homers. The list of guys that have done that is Schmidt and Rolen. That's it. Arenado will be added this year. 

That tells me Rolen is in pretty rarefied air and probably belongs in the Hall. 

I didn't totally ignore defense, but I get where you going.  He's a better defensive 3rd baseman than a lot, if not most of the guys on the list, but I wouldn't call most of them bad defensively.  Rolen was a phenomenal defensive third baseman, and a good to very good hitter.  His 8 Gold Gloves is very impressive, but the National League had fewer elite defensive 3rd basemen during his career than the American League.  Adrian Beltre, Evan Longoria, and Manny Machado are all guys with multiple Gold Gloves, who weren't going to get to 8 because they were playing in a league with multiple elite defensive 3rd basemen.  I'd argue that Beltre and Machado are easily in Rolen's league as a fielder, but both are way better hitters.  ARod, who is vastly underrated as a defender, Boggs, Brett, and Jones were all good defensively, and I'd much rather have all of them at the plate than Rolen. 

For what it's worth, Edgar Martinez wouldn't get in the hall of fame if I had the deciding vote.  He was a great hitter who retired with under 2500 hits.  It isn't like he had a short career, he was in the big leagues for almost 20 years.  When he was at his best, he was great, but if all you can do is hit I'm going to either need you to to get closer to 3000 hits or hit for more power.  He has fewer hits than both Sheffield and Manny, but they both have over 500 homers.  A guy like Dwight Evans, who was a much better defensive player, has more hits, and more homers and never got more than 10.4% of the votes needed to get inducted.  I think both Rolen and Martinez are in the class of players that we talk about as best players not in the Hall of Fame, because they were really good, but that isn't what the Hall of Fame is about.  

[elizium]

I like Rolen, I would have likely voted for him, but its just so depressing and uninspiring when he's the only one elected.

Not everything in baseball history is admirable. The bad is often much more interesting and important. My hall includes Bonds, Clemens, Rodriguez, Sheffield, Manny, Rose, Shoeless Joe. Blackballing players from the steroid era (which itself is a dumb moniker considering I bet just as many players these days are using PEDs as did in 1999) really annoys me, because that was an institutional failure, not one by the players. I get that in the end its nothing but a tourist trap but trying to sanitize the sport into this squeaky clean "Let's play two!" everyone was a hero and role model really does it a disservice.

These players are not only deserving to be in the HoF, trying to tell the story of baseball without them is ludicrous. I think there are things you can do to give them the spot that they deserve, while also acknowledging the sins they committed.

Shorthand, fuck the sanctimonious BBWAA and cowardly veteran's committees.

I honestly don't know what to do about Schilling. I do think he's a hall of famer and should be in there.....but Nazi memes. Plus his massive defrauding of a state is way worse than anything that the other players mentioned have done, by orders of a magnitude.

Edited January 26, 2023 by elizium

[elizium]

Gonna agree with @supremebve, Dwight Evans absolutely should be in there.

And Lou Whitaker....jesus christ, the man's top 3 comps on baseball reference are Sandberg, Trammel, and Alomar.

e: rereading, I'm not sure if you are saying that he should be in there or just using him as a comp...but I for sure am

Edited January 26, 2023 by elizium

[RIPPA]

The Astros have hired Dana Brown as GM

Brown currently becomes the only black GM in baseball (White Sox team president Kenny Williams is the only other black high level executive)

He had been the vice president of scouting for the Braves for the last 4 years

[supremebve]

3 minutes ago, elizium said:

Not everything in baseball history is admirable. The bad is often much more interesting and important. My hall includes Bonds, Clemens, Rodriguez, Manny, Rose, Shoeless Joe. Blackballing players from the steroid era (which itself is a dumb moniker considering I bet just as many players these days are using PEDs as did in 1999) really annoys me, because that was an institutional failure, not one by the players. I get that in the end its nothing but a tourist trap but trying to sanitize the sport into this squeaky clean "Let's play two!" everyone was a hero and role model really does it a disservice.

 

I agree with most of this.  Say what you want about the steroid era, but those guys were "breaking rules" that baseball did absolutely nothing to enforce.  They treated the steroid rules like those laws where you can't talk to a cat on Sunday at city hall.  Sure the rules were on the books, but no one was hanging out at city hall making sure you didn't talk to a cat, and if a cop was to catch you, they wouldn't even tell you to stop.  Gambling on the other hand is something that they've enforced pretty strongly since forever.  Pete Rose not only gambled, got caught, and then lied about it, he kept lying until he could make a profit off of the truth.  You can keep that dude far away from baseball and I won't say a word.  The entire baseball industrial complex celebrating all the home runs that were being hit during the steroid era, and now they are punishing these guys for what they spent their entire careers rewarding them to do.   

[Tabe]

21 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I didn't totally ignore defense, but I get where you going.  He's a better defensive 3rd baseman than a lot, if not most of the guys on the list, but I wouldn't call most of them bad defensively.  Rolen was a phenomenal defensive third baseman, and a good to very good hitter.  His 8 Gold Gloves is very impressive, but the National League had fewer elite defensive 3rd basemen during his career than the American League.  Adrian Beltre, Evan Longoria, and Manny Machado are all guys with multiple Gold Gloves, who weren't going to get to 8 because they were playing in a league with multiple elite defensive 3rd basemen.  I'd argue that Beltre and Machado are easily in Rolen's league as a fielder, but both are way better hitters.  ARod, who is vastly underrated as a defender, Boggs, Brett, and Jones were all good defensively, and I'd much rather have all of them at the plate than Rolen. 

For what it's worth, Edgar Martinez wouldn't get in the hall of fame if I had the deciding vote.  He was a great hitter who retired with under 2500 hits.  It isn't like he had a short career, he was in the big leagues for almost 20 years.  When he was at his best, he was great, but if all you can do is hit I'm going to either need you to to get closer to 3000 hits or hit for more power.  He has fewer hits than both Sheffield and Manny, but they both have over 500 homers.  A guy like Dwight Evans, who was a much better defensive player, has more hits, and more homers and never got more than 10.4% of the votes needed to get inducted.  I think both Rolen and Martinez are in the class of players that we talk about as best players not in the Hall of Fame, because they were really good, but that isn't what the Hall of Fame is about.  

I hear what you're saying. I don't think "you weren't as good as Chipper or Beltre or Boggs" should disqualify a guy. 

I freely admit that Rolen is not a guy who jumps out at you. 

[supremebve]

20 minutes ago, Tabe said:

I hear what you're saying. I don't think "you weren't as good as Chipper or Beltre or Boggs" should disqualify a guy. 

I freely admit that Rolen is not a guy who jumps out at you. 

I get what you're saying, but I feel like we have to judge people on who their contemporaries are, because eras differ so much.  Omar Vizquel would probably be a no questions first ballot Hall of Famer if he was born 10 years earlier.  He played in a post Cal Ripken Jr. world with guys like Jeter, ARod, Jimmie Rollins, and Miguel Tejada were expected to hit for power.  You could be considered an all-time great short-stop who was elite defensively and was a reliable slap hitter who racked up 2877 hits if you came into the majors in 1979, but he came into the majors in 1989 and everything changed.  So, when I'm saying Rolen is not as good as Chipper, Beltre, or Boggs, I'm just trying to compare him to who were considered the best third basemen, and what did they bring to the game in comparison to when he played.  I don't think you can get into the Hall of Fame as a third baseman strictly based on defense.  I honestly don't think anyone will ever get into the Hall of Fame at shortstop based on defense ever again.  Ozzie Smith is in because of defense and defense alone, Vizquel is 1st all time in fielding percentage at shortstop.  Vizquel is a better hitter than Ozzie Smith, but people expected less from a shortstop from the plate when Ozzie played than when Vizquel played, therefore Ozzie is in and Vizquel is not.  So, Rolen was great at a lot of different things, but when compared to the third basemen who are in the hall of fame, he doesn't really compare in my eyes, because of what the standard of a Hall of Fame third baseman has been for the last 40 years.  Seriously, I don't know if Brooks Robinson would get in if he retired right now, because the standard has changed.

[EdA]

Oof.  Am I the only one with HOF PTSD?  Asking for a friend.

Rolen is an odd bird.  He's deserving based on advanced stats - defense and baserunning especially.  IF you believe advanced stats.  I mean, there are plenty of reasons NOT to believe advanced defensive stats.  (Come on, it's 2023, we're not REALLY using GG's as a measure anymore are we?  In that case, Derek Jeter got even sexier!)  And baserunning stats are sorta...there.  But hey, that's all better than nebulous pitch framing.  So OK.

The problem with Rolen is he is as sexy of a choice as cold oatmeal.  Joe Casual fan, with a limited understanding of advanced stats, looks at Rolen being the only one inducted (By the writers.  I didn't forget about Fred McGriff!) and goes - Oh, I sort of remember him.  Shrug.  That's the best they can do?

Like it or not, the HOF is SUPPOSED to be a tourist trap to draw the casual fans and their money.  It's intent was always to draw more of the casuals than the hardcores.

So the troubling thing with the Rolen induction is that it sort of feels (to me, ymmv), like the sportswriters are pandering to the hardcore stat nerds set.  Throw him in next year with say Beltre or whenever Ichiro is inducted and the casuals will go - Oh, good for that rando dude.  Throw him in alone and it feels like the sportswriters are saying - Hey, the casuals don't care about baseball anymore.  Let's just make the spreadhseet set happy! 

And I'm not going to lie, that feeling seems right.  And it's depressing the casusals don't care about baseball anymore so that a class of one supremely competent guy gets a mere yawn and - HOW IS MAHOME'S ANKLE?!?!?!

This is no offense to Rolen, mind you.  He's one of those guys who did a ton of things very well - well, other than stay healthy.  If he was on a team you followed, you probably appreciated him more than most.  He's going to draw no one to Cooperstown on induction weekend, but the writers get to feel like they are NUMBERS WOKE and the statnerds will rejoice.  Huzzah.

But hey, we live in a world where Harold Baines is a HOFer.  I'd rather see a boring competent guy get in than...another drunken LaRussa escapade.

[The Man Known as Dan]

Man, haven't gotten into the HOF debate in a while. Yay.

 

Anyway, Rolen to me was a no doubter, and him not being a bigger name is more about MLB and it's sportswriters in general being absolutely awful at recognizing elite players throughout most of baseball history, especially at 3rd Base and Center Field. Is it true he's not as good as Boggs, Beltre, or Chipper? Sure, I have no problem with that. But how many 3rd basemen in baseball history are better then those 3? Schmidt, Matthews, maybe Brett and Robinson, and A-Rod if you consider him a 3rd basemen. That's basically the list. And I'm not sure if Rolen is any worse then basically any other 3rd Baseman in baseball history. I've described him as his generations Ron Santo: Constantly great at basically all elements you could want a 3rd Baseman to be, but not so over the top great he was ever considered one of the tip top players for his era. It took way too long for Santo to get his due, and even though he primarily played on my teams greatest rivals, I'm glad he got the credit he deserved. 

 

Also, if we want to be critical of the sports writers on this, it should primarily be about how god damned hypocritical there Steroid shit has been. You elect Henderson, who it's basically an open secret did steroids, and you induct Ortiz who had a false test, but Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, etc. are still on the outside waiting, and it's primarily due to how the players treated the sports writers themselves over the steroid issue, they just use that as an excuse.

[Death From Above]

I don't want to start yelling about the hypocricy of the sportswriters who made a career covering these guys again so I'll just say "I agree" and stop there. 

[elizium]

How many columns about Bonds did sportswriters manage to fill that were nothing more than "he had a recliner at his locker and didn't talk to me at all."

Seems to me that he basically gave them free money

[Dolfan in NYC]

8 hours ago, The Man Known as Dan said:

Also, if we want to be critical of the sports writers on this, it should primarily be about how god damned hypocritical there Steroid shit has been. You elect Henderson, who it's basically an open secret did steroids, and you induct Ortiz who had a false test, but Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, etc. are still on the outside waiting, and it's primarily due to how the players treated the sports writers themselves over the steroid issue, they just use that as an excuse.

McGwire and Sosa are both no's on my mythical ballot.  Too many injuries, not good enough numbers (except one category, obviously), massive defensive liabilities.   Big Mac is a maybe, leaning no.  Sosa is a solid no. 

This is like having OSJ back. 

[EdA]

7 minutes ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

This is like having OSJ back. 

So I Phil going to lead to charge on kicking out HOFers too?  Asking for a friend.

[Dolfan in NYC]

11 minutes ago, EdA said:

So I Phil going to lead to charge on kicking out HOFers too?  Asking for a friend.

Gotta do something for his birthday, I suppose.  

[Tabe]

9 hours ago, The Man Known as Dan said:

You induct Ortiz who had a false test

There's nothing saying the Ortiz test was false. Ortiz himself has admitted he failed but blamed it on "an over the counter supplement". MLB said it was "entirely possible" it was a false positive but there's no actual evidence that it was. I think that's just them covering for Ortiz. 

[EdA]

MOVING ALONG from HOF talk....see what I did there? 

Sinclair’s Sports Channels Prepare Bankruptcy, Putting Team Payments at Risk

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-25/sports-broadcaster-diamond-faces-8-6-billion-debt-reckoning

Quote

America’s largest owner of local sports channels is heading toward a complex $8.6 billion debt restructuring in bankruptcy court as it stakes its future on a new direct-to-consumer streaming service.

After leveraging up to buy regional sports networks from Walt Disney Co. in 2019, Diamond Sports Group LLC is suffering from a decline in cable-TV subscribers, spurring negotiations with creditors and major sports leagues about its viability as a going concern. The outcome will have serious implications for the $55 billion world of sports-media rights: the company’s channels showcase Major League Baseball, National Basketball Association and National Hockey League games to fans from Detroit and Phoenix to San Diego.

With financial troubles mounting, the Sinclair Broadcast Group Inc.-owned firm will likely skip $140 million in interest payments due mid-February, kickstarting a 30-day grace period, according to people familiar with the matter. A stark divide is emerging between would-be winners and losers: its $630 million first-lien loan is trading at 92 cents on the dollar, while nearly $5 billion of lower-ranked bonds change hands for under 10 cents — signaling a near-total wipeout for subordinated creditors.

How all this goes down matters. If Diamond, which operates under the Bally Sports brand, files for bankruptcy, it could potentially put at risk crucial broadcasting-rights revenue for the likes of MLB.

 

[RIPPA]

For the Jays fans

 

[Dolfan in NYC]

Jays Fans:  "Why haven't we won the Series in 30 years?"

Jays Management:

 

[odessasteps]

 

[Cobra Commander]

things must be going pretty good at MLB.. most less successful entities would try to seize the newscopter around the $2M debt level

also, Aroldis Chapman is officially announced with the Royals. The Royals also signed Matt Duffy to a minor league deal.

[Tabe]

This could probably go in the uniforms thread but:

MLB has told teams they can only wear four different uniforms during the season instead of 5032 combos we currently get:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/mlb-world-up-in-arms-over-ridiculous-new-uniform-rule/ar-AA16PmiX?cvid=6e2948d20e7e44bfa8dbaadcb2f3d96d

 

[RIPPA]

Mets extend Jeff McNeil - 4 years, $50 million with a 5th year option (buys out his last two arb years and at least 2 FA years). Side Note - McNeil is fucking old (already 31, wouldn't have reached FA until he was 33)