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AEW - OCTOBER 2022


The Natural
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The next new japan show in the Bay Area is February 18, a Saturday. So if the revolution ppv is in the bay Sunday the 19th should be it I guess. New japan has done two Bay Area shows on the same night as the full gear ppv, but not in the same city. Of course they aren’t going head to head and I’d doubt it’s a week before or after, so that’s probably the date. 
 

Edit: That means, if the rumors are true about separate dynamite, rampage, and ppv shows in the bay, I’d also have to pick and choose with new japan Saturday, because I’m not missing that stardom match. Before I figured I’d skip rampage because dynamite is almost always awesome and of course I have to see the ppv. I travel for work and my wife is still super cool about giving me nights out, but three nights in one week is a lot to ask for. Now I have dynamite, stardom, and aew ppv. She’ll let it slide but I’m gonna owe her. 
 

Edit 2: I’m gonna repeat my thought because I know people see it, three separate shows in the bay is not the way to go. One standard dynamite/rampage taping somewhere else, and the ppv at Oakland arena. Or vice versa. 

Edited by matt925
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2 minutes ago, BrianS81177 said:

I disagree vehemently with Jericho's politics. I pretty much agree 100% with Punk's. But if I'm starting a wrestling company I'm picking Jericho over Punk every single time.

I also appreciate that he donates a lot to a lot of people in the wrestling world. It’s worth noting. 

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On the Hangman irked Punk talking about the Cabana thing. I mean I accept that there is a significant possibility Hangman was way out of order there, saying that without clearing it with Punk. But at the end of the day, CM Punk had frequently proclaimed that he doesn't care what anyone save his wife and his dog thinks about him. It didn't really hurt CM Punk's status as a babyface (as I've said before, there's noone who didn't think CM Punk was a bit of prick anyway. Being a prick never really stopped anyone being a successful babyface). So beyond the principle, why is it such a big deal?

On the question of Page and his match layouts, I also don't really give a shit. Basic reason, AEW is pumping out gajillions of at least decentish matches - 95% of to one of a few basic formulas. I'm really quite happy to see someone try something else.

Edited by SprintingFromAmerica
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1 hour ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

This sounds awful, but I hate it when he does it, and then spends ages making sure EVERYONE KNOWS THAT CHRIS JERICHO DONATED THIS MUCH. 

It's a PR exercise, nothing more.

I’m always torn about shit like that. Like, yeah, it’s disingenuous, but the people who need the money don’t care. It still spends…

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Is Jericho donating money and making sure people know about it really much different from virtue seekers wringing their hands and making sure I know how constantly offended they are?

Same tune, different verse.  At least Jericho’s money accomplishes something.

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20 hours ago, Matt D said:

I've been laying off for obvious reasons but Page is just really, really bad at laying out coherent matches. Just saying. I can definitely see someone getting more frustrated by him than someone like Omega or the Bucks who absolutely can lay out matches but make aesthetic choices for various reasons. I knew nothing about him behind the scenes or his background or Punk's concerns or anything else. Was completely unfamiliar with him coming into fall of last year and I came to these conclusions, these quite extreme conclusions, where I think he's uniquely bad in all of the wrestling I've ever seen for someone with his level of push, just from seeing him over those first six months or so.

 

I typed part of this up in response to this but then life pulled me away. It was no longer relevant but now I guess it is. So I finished typing where I left off.

 

I guess I’m interested in the term structure. You’re asking for something unconventional to be more conventional. Rightfully so, of course given the beauty of personal taste. Also rightfully so, it is within the same world and arguably considered style as a lot of these AEW wrestlers. But the question comes from Genre vs Artist. Does Jean-luc Godard make a bad, self indulgent Noir film or a great JLG film. Even if you switch it to good, self-indulgent vs bad [insert individual here], we are still coming down to the basics of concepts of comprehending art as either analysis or feelings towards a piece or story within the confines of norms, tropes and, structures OR an interpretation of the artists or performers in How and Why  to tell their What, in their unique ways. Both are great and true, the way in which we all comprehend what art and storytelling is in a literal why. 

In fact, my post which I tagged you in I was actually agreeing with you. Without Danielson or Omega or Punk or [insert whoever here] his matches I’ll likely be less interested in. But with Danielson and Lance Archer he has the top two ranked Segunda Caida matches this year. But I’m taking a different approach to viewing him. I don’t feel he really needs to change much. As you’ve said last time we’ve discussed Page he has a lack of mid-level offense. That bomb style and combo offense is really what makes his matches special. For better or worse, it is more fun for me to see other’s both in kayfabe game plan and as a performer manage to tell their stories with such a defined character. Just like against Hansen, Attitude Era Stone Cold, Ric Flair, and so many others that are completely defined characters. Within the context of this defined world that is created, that is the psychology going into a bout. The story being told in the ring is more than bell to bell literals of following a traditional narrative structure. That is important and often what I value, but character, personalized artistic style, and context of story and universe before the match is very much important too. 

I fear too often in life people can dangerously desire a need to fit things into an ideology. Now with important things like politics and maybe even day to day (found out someone I respected was a religious lifestyle ideologue and yelled and threatened their niece for cutting her hair when that went against their bible, yikes) it is very dangerous. In politics, we see the same thing in that concepts of structure are what stops an idea of how to solve a problem and gets opposed on ideological reasons. Now in the other things in life, let us use diet as an example. People can be Dietary Ideologues and generally that is fine. Just like how they would address themselves in a sense of political affiliation (Socialist, Liberal, Conservative, Royalist, etc) they follow Paleo, or Atkins, or Mediterranean, etc. My brother lived by his diet and had a very hardcore strict rules in what he could and when he could eat. He lost a lot of weight and it worked out for him. In his case, having an ideology bettered himself. Now, if he was overly pushing his Food-Faith onto other people, he’d be annoying and like other prick ideologues that have a definitive answer to what is right and wrong based on believed conceptualized structures. Luckily, he didn’t and used his rules that worked for his personal body and mind to make needed changes and live his life with.

So what about an ideology on analyzing art? Or even sports? With Sports it is pretty clear who wins and losses and you can go into more details on the Why, but that is an easier thing to point to. Kurt Ramus, coach for the Timberwolves in around 09-011 was a believer in the Triangle Offense and was dead set on running that. When he was assistant coach for the Lakers, it always worked! Well, he didn’t have Kobe or Shaq. He had Johnny Flynn running the point who arguably would have been a better iso player. But long story short and not mentioning we should have drafted Steph fucking Curry god damn it why does Minnesota always hurt me regularly oh the pain is real I just want to be put out of my misery why god why, his unflinching coaching ideology made him less successful. 

Analyzing art. I’m fine with it. I often do roll my eyes when it is lazily written on Reddit that so-and-so can’t work or in film discussions how someone can’t direct or write a good film. It is a subjective opinion, but speaking in such a to the fact matter, it is annoying. I would often see this about Godard who often challenged norms and created and inspired his own path to storytelling, on a structural level. Questioning the editing process, having cool breaks in the story, breaking the fourth wall, playing off of tropes, if Jean-luc Godard was a wrestler you would likely hate him. And that is fair. But I applaud someone who can challenge conventional norms of a Conservative Wrestling Theory in a way that connects so deeply with the audience. 

Outside of you being a kind and lovely person and even friend, your fairly defined wrestling ideology is why I enjoy you so much as a poster. Along with your willingness and ability to write a good deal of content regularly. But it is a treat to see and read you dig through French and Japanese wrestling history in the manner you do. I love your thoughts on the percentage of how much what you determine an “End Segment” should be in a match and how everyone should have three levels of offensive strength in their in match repertoire. It is a real treat to know and read you! But I don’t always agree with you AND THAT IS VERY GOOD. Our last back and forth was on CM Punk vs Hangman. We didn’t agree on the match but I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. I also don’t feel the need to convince you or anyone about agreeing with me. Generally, I come from the standpoint of why I disagree. As posters and as thinkers, we are very different. Your goal (apologies if I am wrong on this) was to construct a reason on what makes a great match and wrestler. A clear definitive structure to help analyze wrestling. A match should have a specific segment of how long in relation to the match for x-y-and z. Realistically, the way they tell their story shouldn’t be repeated but fit within the confines of keeping the Flow and maybe even Pace of the narrative the same. Not just Narrative Structure should be followed, but this very defined version of it. The breaking down of analysis is very interesting and an enjoyable read, but the thought of anyone who steps outside of that to express themselves, make money, and create their own art as not being able to structure a match or create art or tell their story isn’t something I can get behind. 

I’m no an Adam Cole guy, but listening to him talk about learning from Shawn Michaels about a match should be more of a rollercoaster and the main goal to be playing with the up and down emotions of the audience really made me understand and respect his wrestling psychology. (I think this was on his unrestricted episode) It was outside of my own opinions on how he was assembling his actions, but it put things enough into light that I admire him as an Author of his own style, something we need more in wrestling. Shock the system. ?

I’ve talked in the past about Page and his style. What makes him different in his combo style strong offense and in match character of building up moment on a dime makes him exciting as a character and despite being outside of your structure of what a match should be, is admirable in that he has his own style and adds something more to his matches. Auteur Theory in wrestling.

 

lol, now I see your post was edited to take out “can’t structure a match” so maybe none of this is necessary.

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Let me pull out one small portion and have you engage with that, as while that's a fine post, it's more about restating observations and planting a flag. I think there's at least one area where we can explore further, of course, but let me start with one. After a brief clarification or two.

1. I tend not to contribute too much to the listmaking at SC. If I really opposed something I might scrap with Phil or Eric, but I'm much more about exploration and understanding than ranking personally.

2. I do think that Page has many excellent tools and that his character has a lot of value. I went heavily in depth about the latter recently here and you can see my write-ups of the Punk match or the Danielson matches to see some of the nuance there.

To the best of my knowledge, Godard was not involved in collaborative work that impacted his peers. In fact I can't even think of a parallel. Perhaps if he was on a film festival and what he did potentially sabotaged or impacted the ability of filmgoers to immerse themselves in the other films at the festival? Certainly, his work might make more conventional movies seem staler to audiences in general, but he's not in a company with them. There could be some loose fellowship, maybe, but the notion of a single card of pro wrestling matches, let alone years of cards, cannot relate. He certainly wasn't a "world champion" or "member of the elite" with some responsibility to his fellows. I'm for experimentation, but I generally want to see it in the realm of character or execution more so than structure. If you deconstruct things in one match on the card, and everything else has to function like normal, it feels like both a cheat and sabotage. This is why I really don't give a lot of credit to 2010s Brock Lesnar and WWE Big Bombs main event style.

The parallels I'm coming up with, like Taika Waititi messing up scale and scope for the entire MCU in Thor: Ragnarok with his treatment of Surtur or a hypothetical James Bond movie where a director tries certain things and disrupts the ability of future directors to make James Bond movies as easily all seem both shallow and not particularly useful or even connected enough to my point.

Pro wrestling is just unique, right? You're certainly welcome to feel otherwise.

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23 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

Even in that sparsely-replied-to Dynamite thread, here's someone correctly assessing it and getting a decent amount likes seemingly endorsing that assessment. 

I'm sure there's even more of that in other heavily populated parts of the internet. Plenty of people knew the second it came out of Page's mouth. Punk drew greater attention to it, but it's demonstrably false to say "no one even had a clue."

“One guy speculated what was actually the truth and 6 people liked his post and maybe people somewhere else on the internet thought the same. “

No one had a clue. 

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6 hours ago, just drew said:

I’m always torn about shit like that. Like, yeah, it’s disingenuous, but the people who need the money don’t care. It still spends…

Yeah! He still gives it, PR or not. You don't hear about my donations for example. There's a really good reason for it. There's nothing to tell.

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6 hours ago, just drew said:

I’m always torn about shit like that. Like, yeah, it’s disingenuous, but the people who need the money don’t care. It still spends…

It can be argued that Jericho not only sharing the fundraiser but also his own contributions could inspire other people to contribute. I’m still of the school of keeping your charity personal, but I know that in the modern online world sharing a link and leaving a note can be a big difference maker.

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Yeah, he donated money to the orange fuhrer. He also doesn't cause any problems backstage as far as I know and if I'm running a company that's what I want. I can't recall hearing anything negative about Jericho's attitude in the locker room while he's been with AEW. A person's politics don't necessarily make them a bad person to have around. And again I say that disagreeing vehemently with Jericho's support of the Orangutan.

Edited by BrianS81177
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Yeah, but what about his punches? 

(@GuerrillaMonsoon, my man, I agree with you wholeheartedly on this, but people are not going to change their viewpoints on Jericho w/r/t AEW no matter how you make this argument, so save your fingertips and sanity.)

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2 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

Dunno, man, if you were running a promotion in the Yukon territory, would you book Pinochet or the 2nd Duke of Clarence?

I genuinely busted out laughing over here. 

Book Pinochet as a face because if you think about it, he kept the trains running on time. 

I will shift focus a bit by saying that I'm going to this AEW show in Seattle in January, and I'm dreading Jericho's whole act. Judas, his shoot self-aggrandizing mic hogging shit that was at the level of '00s HHH doing fifteen minute monologues to start RAW last I saw, etc. If he's a backstage leader, he's leading that company into an artistic pit. 

Edited by SirSmellingtonofCascadia
I make so many typos. I make them and make them.
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