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October 2022 Wrestling Discussion


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40 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

WWE obviously got away from that style when they went PG but I think there's absolutely a place for an upper-midcard hardcore highspot underdog babyface. It's a guaranteed merch mover if nothing else. But this is a company that doesn't even have a proper Little Flippy Hero for the kids to look up to, one that can occasionally win a big title. Their 2022 Rey Mysterio is still Rey Mysterio, it should have been Ricochet but that ship probably sailed.

I don't think Ricochet ever could have taken the spot. Something always feels off with him despite his athletics gifts. He would have done better with a solid push, but I don't think he has the physical charisma to be accepted at that level on the main roster. Keep in mind its not like they didn't try to find a new Rey Mysterio. They just failed every time. Also seems weird to bring up Rey when talking Jeff Hardy as they are kind of different even if both are underdogs. Rey was utilizing skill and flash to win. Jeff was going the Foley route of kamikaze. I agree Darby can definitely be Jeff for the current/new generation. 

Edited by Eivion
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25 minutes ago, nate said:

I always thought a superplex factored in as well.

I feel like the superplex was more of a big match thing, but he'd definitely mix in his real good vertical suplex sometimes.

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52 minutes ago, zendragon said:

that was the great debate. Was the Sharpshooter #5 or did the 5 moves lead up to the Sharpshooter? I also don't recall it being used pejoratively 

 

33 minutes ago, Zimbra said:

I feel like the superplex was more of a big match thing, but he'd definitely mix in his real good vertical suplex sometimes.

Lumping these together because, yes, I was confused about the regular suplex/superplex inclusion because, after I posted, I started remembering that Bret didn't do a superplex in every match.

And I, too, thought it was "the 5 moves of doom" that led to the sharpshooter.

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1 hour ago, John E. Dynamite said:

To make a confidently doltish comparison, Mikey Whipwreck was Big Mama Thorton and Jeff Hardy was Elvis. He didn't invent the style but he was the conduit for which the middle-class, middle-school gentry used to start dreaming in highspots.

Holy shit do I love this so much.  Bravo, John E!

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1 hour ago, zendragon said:

that was the great debate. Was the Sharpshooter #5 or did the 5 moves lead up to the Sharpshooter? I also don't recall it being used pejoratively 

I always Five Moves of Doom was to show the hypocrisy of him criticizing people like Flair for being formulaic. 

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I think with the increased availability of footage for both of them it’s borne out that  Bret enjoyed incorporating the moves and spots he was best at into his matches in logical ways;  Flair had moves and spots he kept in his back pocket for when he ran out of ideas, and the longer he kept wrestling the fewer ideas he had.

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Flair's "I do the greatest hits because that's what the crowd comes to see me do" isn't a bad or wrong instinct. It's just not one I value in my wrestling match layouts or my wrestlers. 

But yes, Bret was more interested in chopping up how he used those moves. His argument was, yeah, I have go-to moves that I feel are effective in setting my opponent up for my killer move, as any wrestler would which is entirely reasonable. 

The problem is not with Bret's ideas about the 5MOD, but the system in which he worked that wouldn't let him get wins over lesser opponents with any of those 5MOD. I really wish American wrestling would do more to signal tier differences between workers by letting top workers get wins with setup moves over jobbers and lower-midcarders. 

Anyway, 5MOD was used as a pejorative by the Scott Keith crowd and was revived to mock John Cena in the late aughts, but Scott Keith is an idiot who didn't understand the difference between Bret hitting a side-Russian leg sweep in the dying throes of a match and Flair flopping or begging off or flipping the turnbuckle and running the apron to do a failed top-rope move. 

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Okay, so I think now's a good time to bring this up since work has settled down and conveniently there's Bret discussion.  Yesterday was Celebfest 5 and while it's not wise to book it the same day as the Ravens game there was still a good turnout.  Now for some rapid fire stuff.

Orange and Danhausen were awesome to meet, Abadon was super sweet and has quite the lovely Southern accent, we thanked Miro for being fucking awesome and living the dream, Bryce had to separate us, Hangman is a wonderfully handsome gentleman, Ricky Starks is fun to talk to, Colt's doing okay and the mental break last month helped, Nyla made a run-in (covered in the AEW thread) and my wife of all people spent $100 for a Takahashi because she loves the guy and especially Daryl.  The photos we took are here and I may prune it a bit since there's a lot of repeats.  https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1c-63uiMOHm2eD3sshu-0jIQ1cAm9NEuf?usp=sharing

BUT the main reason for bringing this us is to discuss one Bret Hart.  I met him twice before and both times fanboyed so much I could barely say anything.  Heck, I don't know if I said anything that made sense but that's nerves for ya.  This time I put it in my head to be as chill as can be and freak out later.  Thankfully I managed that and had what almost feels like a dream.

As he was signing the shades I had to ask him if he knew at the time that he had the intention to have matches that stood the test of time.  He said when the camera was on he strived every night to accomplish that and wanted to make sure that there were holes in his game that people could pick apart.  He took a lot of pride in that and was happy to know people still discuss his work every day.  He also asked what my favorite match was.  While it almost felt like cheating I said the submission match against Stone Cold.  But I made sure to point out what I loved so much about it and he beamed as he said that's his favorite too.  Lastly I thanked him for the Cameo last year for @The Natural and how much that meant to him.  He smiled and said that he was glad to do it and wanted to make sure people knew he was genuine when doing those.

So the tl;dr I guess is Celebfest was fun and on top of that I managed to not freak out talking to my hero.  He was so incredibly nice and as soon as I got up I kept telling my wife I needed a minute.  I go to the side and after a few minutes of shaking out the nerves it dawned on me that that happened and I finally got my signed shades.  Yeah, it was $200 but fuck it that shit was so incredibly worth it.

 

Edited by NikoBaltimore
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Bret had different moves he'd do on bigger opponents too, guys he couldn't perform his regular signature moves on. Second rope clothesline and second rope or running bulldog spring to mind. I guess the key thing with Bret is that he wrestled his matches as though it was a real contest, and in that context it made sense that he'd fall back on the same set of moves that he felt he had mastered.

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2 minutes ago, Yo-Yo's Roomie said:

Bret had different moves he'd do on bigger opponents too, guys he couldn't perform his regular signature moves on. Second rope clothesline and second rope or running bulldog spring to mind. I guess the key thing with Bret is that he wrestled his matches as though it was a real contest, and in that context it made sense that he'd fall back on the same set of moves that he felt he had mastered.

When I praise Christian, it's because he took that to the next level, dealing with a different set of challenges, basically working the same guy multiple times on TV shows over a span of weeks. He'd take his stuff, move it around to fit the moment, but also work in his opponents' stuff and figure out how to work the counters between one and another, but often not in the same way over multiple matches. That doesn't necessarily mean that Christian was better or worse than Bret, but that he was table to take what Bret did to a logical conclusion given a different set of structural challenges and opportunities.

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2 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said:

Okay, so I think now's a good time to bring this up since work has settled down.  Yesterday was Celebfest 5 and while it's not wise to book it the same day as the Ravens game there was still a good turnout.  Now for some rapid fire stuff.

Orange and Danhausen were awesome to meet, Abadon was super sweet and has quite the lovely Southern accent, we thanked Miro for being fucking awesome and living the dream, Bryce had to separate us, Hangman is a wonderfully handsome gentleman, Ricky Starks is fun to talk to, Colt's doing okay and the mental break last month helped, Nyla made a run-in (covered in the AEW thread) and my wife of all people spent $100 for a Takahashi because she loves the guy and especially Daryl.  The photos we took are here and I may prune it a bit since there's a lot of repeats.  https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1c-63uiMOHm2eD3sshu-0jIQ1cAm9NEuf?usp=sharing

BUT the main reason for bringing this us is to discuss one Bret Hart.  I met him twice before and both times fanboyed so much I could barely say anything.  Heck, I don't know if I said anything that made sense but that's nerves for ya.  This time I put it in my head to be as chill as can be and freak out later.  Thankfully I managed that and had what almost feels like a dream.

As he was signing the shades I had to ask him if he knew at the time that he had the intention to have matches that stood the test of time.  He said when the camera was on he strived every night to accomplish that and wanted to make sure that there were holes in his game that people could pick apart.  He took a lot of pride in that and was happy to know people still discuss his work every day.  He also asked what my favorite match was.  While it almost felt like cheating I said the submission match against Stone Cold.  But I made sure to point out what I loved so much about it and he beamed as he said that's his favorite too.  Lastly I thanked him for the Cameo last year for @The Natural and how much that meant to him.  He smiled and said that he was glad to do it and wanted to make sure people knew he was genuine when doing those.

So the tl;dr I guess is Celebfest was fun and on top of that I managed to not freak out talking to my hero.  He was so incredibly nice and as soon as I got up I kept telling my wife I needed a minute.  I go to the side and after a few minutes of shaking out the nerves it dawned on me that that happened and I finally got my signed shades.  Yeah, it was $200 but fuck it that shit was so incredibly worth it.

 

This is all wonderful, but please don't let it get lost in here that Bret Hart, in person, from his own mouth, talked about @The Natural!

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I think there needs to be some context to Flair having spent well over a decade being the champ or a top attraction on the territory circuit, and the number of times he had to essentially carry a broomstick as part of those duties. 

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1 minute ago, JLowe said:

I think there needs to be some context to Flair having spent well over a decade being the champ or a top attraction on the territory circuit, and the number of times he had to essentially carry a broomstick as part of those duties. 

There's a lot to talk about with Flair and a lot that's been said:

I always see it as a threefold problem: 1.) He wanted fans to get what he wanted out of Ray Stevens when he had been a fan. All the hits. 2.) After becoming such a success he was then a victim of his own success in that he was so well known and well-defined as who and what he was and 3.) To some degree, he defined the 80s (and later) idea of greatness and more specifically "greatest". To go away from the formula would be to go away from what people had defined greatness as.

Now, whether you want to judge him on his imagination or wrestling mind or ability to craft a longer narrative or just wrestle for the moment or whether or not he saw his opponents as opportunities or burdens, that's a different issue.

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I think Kurt Angle is sort of the logical endpoint of Ric Flair, who I think of more and more as a go-go-go wrestler who came off as (and TBF was) a legit athlete. Flair did stuff to do it sometimes because it looked cool and the crowd wanted it and fuck it, let's just throw it in there. That's like Kurt Angle to a tee, but Angle doesn't have any of Flair's awareness about when to stop and milk stuff or how to build to any of the go-go-go. Angle is like Flair with an endless motor.

That's the comparison I'd make having watched a ton of Flair and a bit of Angle lately. 

Edited by SirSmellingtonofCascadia
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I broadly agree with the talking point that Flair became more formulaic once he went from working a territory's best worker or top babyface to relatively green guys like Nikita, Sting and Luger and having to repeated wrestle Dusty. 

I'd be curious if we had enough pre-1984 Flair footage against different opponents to see how true it is. 

Edited by odessasteps
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21 minutes ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I wonder who was the best touring champ in terms of mixing things up. I wish we had more Race/Brisco/Funk Jr. stuff from the '70s to look at. 

Of those wrestlers that we have a decent amount of footage of (in this case covering AWA, Southwest, Houston, Memphis, Continental, Canada, Hawaii, Japan)?

Class personified: Nick Bockwinkel dies | Slam Wrestling

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33 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Of those wrestlers that we have a decent amount of footage of (in this case covering AWA, Southwest, Houston, Memphis, Continental, Canada, Hawaii, Japan)?

Class personified: Nick Bockwinkel dies | Slam Wrestling

I feel like I haven't seen enough of his '70s stuff - most of what I've seen is of his post-prime period - but even in his post-prime, he's amazing. One of the best 40+ aged workers ever. 

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The old timers would talk about Harley Race in glowing terms with his ability to mix it up…I wish I could see more of Brisco.

Dory always bored me to tears.

The answer was probably Terry Funk, although his reign was shorter than the others.

Edited by The Great ML
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1 hour ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I wonder who was the best touring champ in terms of mixing things up. I wish we had more Race/Brisco/Funk Jr. stuff from the '70s to look at. 

This is a really good question Terry Funk has shown time and time again over the years that he can do almost everything you want a wrestler to do at a high level. I don't think I've ever seen a great Harley Race match, but he's incredibly well respected. Then there is Jack Briscoe. I've seen maybe 10 matches fairing Jack Briscoe and all of them made me want to see more. He's like Bryan Danielson where he just feels like the best wrestler in the ring no matter who he's in the ring with. I've watched a few Dory Funk Jr. matches, and I'd rather watch that foot scene from last night's House of the Dragon on an endless loop than watch another one. 

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I get why people are bored by Dory, but I enjoy him. 

Though really I mostly enjoy him when he's wrestling Horst Hoffman, based on the random watching I did of Dory in the '70s on YT a year or two back. 

 

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