October 2022 Wrestling Discussion

[zendragon]

8 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

This is a good point, though I place most of the blame on everyone losing their minds over Joe and Punk or Joe and Danielson going 45+ just to do it in RoH.

I have a ton of problems with RoH and what, in my view, it and its legacy have done to modern wrestling.

Long matches are in wrestling are like music going from Vinyl to digital. Two sides of Vinyl is about 40 minutes, better give em your best stuff. Sure occasionally you would get a Physical Graffiti but for the most part you have Long Live Rock n Roll short all killer no filler. Then we get CD about 70 minutes so its cool that you get Number of The Beast with Total Eclipse added back in. Now we have digital which is the equivalent of 40+ Adam Cole ROH title matches, every one wants to do these 100 minute albums just for the fuck of it

 

7 hours ago, Octopus said:

I find the concepts of blowback in niche and popular wrestling times/moments to be fascinating. The influence of promotions and individuals that for better or worse on future generations of wrestlers. Rey Mysterio being breathtaking and small, ECW having wild shows, the Four Pillars head based offense, Mic Foley putting his body through hell, Ring of Honor having long matches, etc.

Fun stuff. What were other revolutionary or influential moments/ wrestlers/ promotions that deserves mentioning? ALSO, who are people or places now that you think will have an impact on how the kids will want to wrestle in the future? 

RVD v Jerry Lynn inspired a LOT of copycatism  in the post ECW early 2000's indy scene, particularly that counter-counter-counter karate stance spots that was cool when he first saw it and then got done to death

 

3 hours ago, Octopus said:

 

I would say that the Danielson specifically inspired a lot of the youngsters. Off the top of my head Alan Angels and Daniel Garcia have him as their favorites. Pro or Con towards how we look at wrestling today or even then, I’ll say I have a big soft spot for this period of Danielson and the interesting field of top level American Independent workers (Super Dragon, Necro Butcher, Chris Hero, Punk, Joe, Mike Quackenbush, Low Ki). But I’m going on a tangent and my ramble has lost its point, if I ever was even making on.

 

Cinematic Matches - We can point to examples before the pandemic (Lucha Underground, Hollywood Backlot Brawl, Delete Stuff, Bray stuff?) but hot dang some of them during lockdown was fun during a dark time. I loved the Stadium Stampede. I could see a streaming service take a chase and tape several matches that are overly scripted and highly glamorized both in and out of the ring. Mix in sexy actors that can deliver monologues while doing a sunset flip.

On the first point you can kinda tell who was watching what when they when 15ish. Vets in their late 30's/40's (FTR/Punk) idolize Bret Hart

People in their earlier 30's or late 20s like Sasha or Britt Baker grew up on post attitude era / ruthless aggression era. they look up to Jericho and Eddie (and probably Benoit pre tragedy but nobody says that out loud)

And yes The American Dragon is the Hero of the Zoomers!

As for Cinematic matches. With the death of the house show business I wonder if we don't go back to studio wrestling in some format? Instead of NWA taping in converted casino ballrooms (or what ever they do) I'm waiting for one of these media companies with a streaming service to start a new Lucha Underground (I watches LU on Netflix & Tubi not on first run) build a set that looks decent on a soundstage you all ready own or a warehouse somewhere on the east side of LA and just run tapings.

[AxB]

16 hours ago, S.K.o.S. said:

There's at least one difficult spot in this one, but you have my permission to look up any unfamiliar Japanese names 

17:10. I'm getting worse and worse at these.

[The Natural]

The Excellence of Execution is the most apt wrestling nickname. When I think of storytelling and delivery of moves, it's Bret Hart. Nobody does the Sharpshooter better than Bret. When I think of the Russian Legsweep, Elbow from the middle rope, Piledriver, European Uppercut, Suplex, Superplex and punches, it's Bret Hart.

My top 15 Bret Hart matches:

15. Bret Hart vs. Ricky Steamboat. 8th March 1986.

14. Bret Hart vs. Diesel. Royal Rumble 1995.

13. Bret Hart vs. The Undertaker. One Night Only 1997.

12. Bret Hart vs. Mr. Perfect. SummerSlam 1991.

11. Bret Hart vs. British Bulldog. SummerSlam 1992.

10. Bret Hart vs. 123 Kid. RAW, 11th July 1994.

9. Bret Hart vs. The Undertaker vs. Steve Austin vs. Vader. In Your House 13: Final Four.

8. Bret Hart/Owen Hart/British Bulldog/Jim Neidhart/Brian Pillman vs. Steve Austin/Legion of Doom/Goldust/Ken Shamrock. In Your House 16: Canadian Stampede.

7. Bret Hart vs. Mr. Perfect. King of the Ring 1993.

6. Bret Hart vs. Diesel. Survivor Series 1995.

5. Bret Hart vs. British Bulldog. In Your House 5: Season's Beatings.

4. Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart. SummerSlam 1994. *****.

3. Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin. Survivor Series 1996. *****.

2. Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart. WrestleMania X. *****.

1. Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin. WrestleMania 13. *****. The greatest match in wrestling history.

---

Fucking love Bret Hart.

Edited October 16, 2022 by The Natural

[Octopus]

@The Natural, I’d love to see your top 15 of each of your top 15 favorite wrestlers. The Natural lists of all Natural lists!

[SirSmUgly]

Good to see someone else rate the Perfect KotR match over the SummerSlam one. 

Has the Bret/Perfect match from Alaska never come out on fancam? That's probably one of my most wanted house show fancams, if not my most wanted.

[PetrolCB]

8 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

Has the Bret/Perfect match from Alaska never come out on fancam? That's probably one of my most wanted house show fancams, if not my most wanted.

Nah, just a photo...

https://i.postimg.cc/fRrL6G7s/Eq-Sa88s-Vo-AIBWh3.jpg

Edited October 16, 2022 by PetrolCB

[The Natural]

 

[Ziggy]

13 hours ago, The Natural said:

The Excellence of Execution is the most apt wrestling nickname. When I think of storytelling and delivery of moves, it's Bret Hart. Nobody does the Sharpshooter better than Bret. When I think of the Russian Legsweep, Elbow from the middle rope, Piledriver, European Uppercut, Suplex, Superplex and punches, it's Bret Hart.

My top 15 Bret Hart matches:

15. Bret Hart vs. Ricky Steamboat. 8th March 1986.

14. Bret Hart vs. Diesel. Royal Rumble 1995.

13. Bret Hart vs. The Undertaker. One Night Only 1997.

12. Bret Hart vs. Mr. Perfect. SummerSlam 1991.

11. Bret Hart vs. British Bulldog. SummerSlam 1992.

10. Bret Hart vs. 123 Kid. RAW, 11th July 1994.

9. Bret Hart vs. The Undertaker vs. Steve Austin vs. Vader. In Your House 13: Final Four.

8. Bret Hart/Owen Hart/British Bulldog/Jim Neidhart/Brian Pillman vs. Steve Austin/Legion of Doom/Goldust/Ken Shamrock. In Your House 16: Canadian Stampede.

7. Bret Hart vs. Mr. Perfect. King of the Ring 1993.

6. Bret Hart vs. Diesel. Survivor Series 1995.

5. Bret Hart vs. British Bulldog. In Your House 5: Season's Beatings.

4. Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart. SummerSlam 1994. *****.

3. Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin. Survivor Series 1996. *****.

2. Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart. WrestleMania X. *****.

1. Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin. WrestleMania 13. *****. The greatest match in wrestling history.

---

Fucking love Bret Hart.

One of the other things that puts Bret over top of just about anyone else is his ability to switch things up like he beat Davey Boy with a Magistral Cradle or Bigelow with a victory roll or the Finish at WM 8. He would get clean pins over guys on PPV instead of his Sharpshooter. Most top guys especially before Bret got to the top of the card , if the were going over clean on PPV it would be with their Finish. Bret made you feel like he was out to win first and foremost. That was especially cool before the Attitude Era where guys were using their Finishers and people were kicking out or reversing or going to the rope several times.

[The Natural]

54 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

One of the other things that puts Bret over top of just about anyone else is his ability to switch things up like he beat Davey Boy with a Magistral Cradle or Bigelow with a victory roll or the Finish at WM 8. He would get clean pins over guys on PPV instead of his Sharpshooter. Most top guys especially before Bret got to the top of the card , if the were going over clean on PPV it would be with their Finish. Bret made you feel like he was out to win first and foremost. That was especially cool before the Attitude Era where guys were using their Finishers and people were kicking out or reversing or going to the rope several times.

This. Iconic endings.

[The Natural]

Adding to the above, how the victory roll worked out for Bret Hart vs. Bam Bam Bigelow, King of the Ring 1993 but Owen Hart countered it defeating Bret Hart at WrestleMania X.

[Casey]

I guess the Triple H regime is letting the talent do what they want? Mandy Rose has a pretty risqué VIP website, and I’m honestly shocked they’re allowing her to do some of these things (but glad they are because corporations shouldn’t control what employees do on their off-time).

Selling ring gear is one thing, but lingerie?

[odessasteps]

It may depend on what kind of moral terpitude clauses they have and also the whole employee vs contractor thing too. 

I wonder how exactly it worked in the 2000s with morals clauses when you had company- sanctioned people posing in Playboy. 

Now, in 2020, I presume things are different, esp when talent gets stuff leaked (ie Paige). 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

"Moral clause" is such a messed up name for that practice. I've yet to figure out what's so immoral about having nipples.

[The Natural]

17 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

"Moral clause" is such a messed up name for that practice. I've yet to figure out what's so immoral about having nipples.

This.

Dean Ambrose agrees as well .

[The Natural]

Shout out to the hard working crew.

[JLowe]

5 hours ago, odessasteps said:

It may depend on what kind of moral terpitude clauses they have and also the whole employee vs contractor thing too. 

I wonder how exactly it worked in the 2000s with morals clauses when you had company- sanctioned people posing in Playboy. 

Now, in 2020, I presume things are different, esp when talent gets stuff leaked (ie Paige). 

Didn't the company actually make a lot of those arrangements for being in Playboy? 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

42 minutes ago, JLowe said:

Didn't the company actually make a lot of those arrangements for being in Playboy? 

Not 100% certain about the earlier ones, but I'm guessing blindly that they did for some of the later issues featuring their talent, because I recall some sort of co-branded or co-sponsored Playboy battle royal or pillow fight or something 

[caley]

On 10/15/2022 at 11:13 AM, Ramo2653 said:

Going back to the confused looks from wearing a wrestling shirt thing, I get looks and questions when I wear my Shayna Bazler "Submission Magician" shirt. I've gotten asked multiple times if I'm into dom/sub play from wearing that and I have to explain that it's just a cool wrestler.

My favourite wrestling shirt moment I've been a part of was my brother wearing a DDP shirt he found at Value Village and an old woman coming up to him and going "Excuse me, young man, what is Dop?" He still brings that up and hasn't watched wrestling in probably over 20 years.

[FourPostMassacre]

On 10/16/2022 at 6:03 AM, zendragon said:

Long matches are in wrestling are like music going from Vinyl to digital. Two sides of Vinyl is about 40 minutes, better give em your best stuff. Sure occasionally you would get a Physical Graffiti but for the most part you have Long Live Rock n Roll short all killer no filler. Then we get CD about 70 minutes so its cool that you get Number of The Beast with Total Eclipse added back in. Now we have digital which is the equivalent of 40+ Adam Cole ROH title matches, every one wants to do these 100 minute albums just for the fuck of it

 

[b]RVD v Jerry Lynn inspired a LOT of copycatism  in the post ECW early 2000's indy scene, particularly that counter-counter-counter karate stance spots that was cool when he first saw it and then got done to death[/b]

 

On the first point you can kinda tell who was watching what when they when 15ish. Vets in their late 30's/40's (FTR/Punk) idolize Bret Hart

People in their earlier 30's or late 20s like Sasha or Britt Baker grew up on post attitude era / ruthless aggression era. they look up to Jericho and Eddie (and probably Benoit pre tragedy but nobody says that out loud)

And yes The American Dragon is the Hero of the Zoomers!

As for Cinematic matches. With the death of the house show business I wonder if we don't go back to studio wrestling in some format? Instead of NWA taping in converted casino ballrooms (or what ever they do) I'm waiting for one of these media companies with a streaming service to start a new Lucha Underground (I watches LU on Netflix & Tubi not on first run) build a set that looks decent on a soundstage you all ready own or a warehouse somewhere on the east side of LA and just run tapings.

The “Indy Staredown”.  
 

Anyone else remember when Bret Hart was considered Mr. 5 moves of doom?

Crazy how he’s grown in to this mythical worker in people’s minds now compared to how he was viewed in the past. 

[John E. Dynamite]

I don't think people begin to realize the influence of Jeff Hardy. Every little brother I knew wanted to be Jeff Hardy. He wasn't big, he wasn't buff, he didn't talk, his gimmick was nebulous at best. But he was beloved, because he was willing to fall off of stuff. He had a high-flying finisher that anyone could do. If you wanted to be Bret you had to be *really good at stuff*. If you wanted to be Rock or Austin you had to have the requisite charisma. Hell, even if you wanted to be Foley you had to be able to be craaazy + be able to talk. Kids latch on to role models more if they believe the role to be attainable, and the barrier to believing you could be Jeff Hardy was so low, especially for a generation already being weaned on Jackass.

The obvious reason why turn-of-the-millenium backyard wrestling looked like ECW is because you don't have to know how to wrestle to crack your friends with a baking sheet and fall off your garage roof, but most of the kids doing that stuff didn't know anything about ECW until after the fact. To make a confidently doltish comparison, Mikey Whipwreck was Big Mama Thorton and Jeff Hardy was Elvis. He didn't invent the style but he was the conduit the middle-class, middle-school gentry employed when they started dreaming in highspots.

I think Darby should be that guy in this generation, but I don't think AEW's demo skews young enough for the effect to be the same. WWE obviously got away from that style when they went PG but I think there's absolutely a place for an upper-midcard hardcore highspot underdog babyface. It's a guaranteed merch mover if nothing else. But this is a company that doesn't even have a proper Little Flippy Hero for the kids to look up to, one that can occasionally win a big title. Their 2022 Rey Mysterio is still Rey Mysterio, it should have been Ricochet but that ship probably sailed. But yeah man, it's Jeff. I couldn't stand him as younger man but he showed everybody a whole new path to getting huge reactions on the biggest stages possible without requiring any great set of skills. Fucking Wardlow takes half his moveset from Jeff, christsakes. 

Edited October 17, 2022 by John E. Dynamite

[JLowe]

32 minutes ago, FourPostMassacre said:

Anyone else remember when Bret Hart was considered Mr. 5 moves of doom?

Crazy how he’s grown in to this mythical worker in people’s minds now compared to how he was viewed in the past. 

Lots of Scott Keith-led groupthink on RSPW is partly responsible for that. He is a great worker who also could go on auto-pilot in a lot of his matches.

[zendragon]

I remember Bret's comeback/ finishing sequence was called "The 5 Moves of Doom" but I was never sure which 5 moves they where

[Matt D]

1 hour ago, FourPostMassacre said:

Anyone else remember when Bret Hart was considered Mr. 5 moves of doom?

Crazy how he’s grown in to this mythical worker in people’s minds now compared to how he was viewed in the past. 

The problem was always Scott Keith, never Bret.

@JLowebeat me to it.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Matt D

[Zimbra]

10 minutes ago, zendragon said:

I remember Bret's comeback/ finishing sequence was called "The 5 Moves of Doom" but I was never sure which 5 moves they where

If I recall correctly: Pendulum backbreaker, Russian legsweep, 2nd-rope elbow, Manhattan drop, Sharpshooter.

[nate]

1 minute ago, Zimbra said:

If I recall correctly: Pendulum backbreaker, Russian legsweep, 2nd-rope elbow, Manhattan drop, Sharpshooter.

I always thought a superplex factored in as well.