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October 2022 Wrestling Discussion


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1 hour ago, zendragon said:

To me Orton is a lot like HHH. Is high end stuff is really  really good but if I was to do a career retrospective I feel their would be a lot of stuff to sit through

Orton is a guy like Dave Krieg, Matt Hassleback or Alex Smith. He's been around for a really long time, been decent for most of that time and has had years where he's really good but ultimately, you're hard pressed to remember more than 10 big standout moments from him. All of those guys are in the top 30 in passing yards in the NFL, which makes them all pretty good QBs, but odds are that 99% of you wouldn't have known that unless I told you. That's how I feel about Orton.

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I always saw Orton as a wrestler's wrestler. He's very consistent, safe (unless he is dropping you through a table), and steady. He does the WWE style of main events as well as anyone and can be either a heel or a face with equal efficiency. He can be plugged into just about any storyline at any time and give it some legitimacy. So I can see why he is so valued by WWE, and why other wrestlers frequently name him as a "top" wrestler, but I'll be damned if I can think of any great matches that were great because of him specifically.

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I agree. I can name a decent amount of good-great matches with Orton from the past two decades, but it really wasn't him who was the standout out in any them per say. I actually like Orton, but he has never quite been a favorite. 

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3 hours ago, zendragon said:

To me Orton is a lot like HHH. Is high end stuff is really  really good but if I was to do a career retrospective I feel their would be a lot of stuff to sit through

This is an interesting thought. I think both guys's high-end stuff suffers from being overlong and meandering. HHH filling 25 minutes+ with entertaining action has only happened once for my money, and it was against a top-five/top-ten talent ever in pro wrestling. I really don't think that Orton has much that works at that level, either. Most of the longer stuff in big spots that was good came when he was younger and working against vets who knew their shit (Undertaker/Foley).

(On a side note, it's pretty crazy that Foley arguably gave Orton and Edge their career singles matches when he was well-past washed. Foley's a guy who needs editing himself sometimes, but when he gets it, he gets it.)

Orton to me feels like a career full of cool spots and angles more than of memorable matches, TV or PPV/PLE. If you asked me what I thought of when I thought of Orton's career, it'd be the RNN segments, getting thumbs up and then thumbs down after winning the WHC from Benoit, the pop-up RKO on Rollins at Wrestlemania, that period where he was punting dudes and rolling his eyes like a psycho, stuff like that. 

HHH is interesting in that I find him way more watchable when he's got Chyna as his second. I enjoyed the Foley cage match and Raw street fight and, in fact, his Owen Hart feud and their WM XIV match more than anything he did outside of 2000 until the Bryan match at WM 30. Some of his other stuff early in his Fed run is actually really enjoyable. I saw the Hog Pen match with Henry Godwin a few months ago with fresh eyes, and it's actually legitimately good. The Marc Mero stuff was also better than I remembered it - not great, but enjoyable. 

I do think that when it comes to 2000, HHH's best stuff is really the Foley stuff, particularly the Rumble Street Fight. The No Way Out cell match actually doesn't hit the same as it did then. This will sound like I'm trying to shit on Hunter, but other than the Foley match at the Rumble, my favorite thing he did in 2000 was the Rikishi title match on Smackdown in January, which is this incredibly fun TV match where HHH is pretty sure he's fucked the minute that he gets to the ring and works like Flair, but good, in that he shows a ton of ass and barely hangs on and you think Rikishi could actually beat him in a rematch at a big show. 

Edited by SirSmellingtonofCascadia
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23 minutes ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

Bob (Jr.) is alright! He's a quality hand in Mid-South and always good for some entertaining scumbag shit against JYD or Mr. Olympia or whomever. 

Bob trolling Piper by wearing a pink cowboy hat while seconding Adonis was quality heeling.

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3 hours ago, cwoy2j said:

Orton is a guy like Dave Krieg, Matt Hassleback or Alex Smith. He's been around for a really long time, been decent for most of that time and has had years where he's really good but ultimately, you're hard pressed to remember more than 10 big standout moments from him. All of those guys are in the top 30 in passing yards in the NFL, which makes them all pretty good QBs, but odds are that 99% of you wouldn't have known that unless I told you. That's how I feel about Orton.

Two of these three QBs played for the Seahawks, which I think pretty much sums up the first 35 years of the franchise. 

Edited by SirSmellingtonofCascadia
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1 hour ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

This is an interesting thought. I think both guys's high-end stuff suffers from being overlong and meandering. HHH filling 25 minutes+ with entertaining action has only happened once for my money, and it was against a top-five/top-ten talent ever in pro wrestling. I really don't think that Orton has much that works at that level, either. Most of the longer stuff in big spots that was good came when he was younger and working against vets who knew their shit (Undertaker/Foley).

(On a side note, it's pretty crazy that Foley arguably gave Orton and Edge their career singles matches when he was well-past washed. Foley's a guy who needs editing himself sometimes, but when he gets it, he gets it.)

Orton to me feels like a career full of cool spots and angles more than of memorable matches, TV or PPV/PLE. If you asked me what I thought of when I thought of Orton's career, it'd be the RNN segments, getting thumbs up and then thumbs down after winning the WHC from Benoit, the pop-up RKO on Rollins at Wrestlemania, that period where he was punting dudes and rolling his eyes like a psycho, stuff like that. 

HHH is interesting in that I find him way more watchable when he's got Chyna as his second. I enjoyed the Foley cage match and Raw street fight and, in fact, his Owen Hart feud and their WM XIV match more than anything he did outside of 2000 until the Bryan match at WM 30. Some of his other stuff early in his Fed run is actually really enjoyable. I saw the Hog Pen match with Henry Godwin a few months ago with fresh eyes, and it's actually legitimately good. The Marc Mero stuff was also better than I remembered it - not great, but enjoyable. 

I do think that when it comes to 2000, HHH's best stuff is really the Foley stuff, particularly the Rumble Street Fight. The No Way Out cell match actually doesn't hit the same as it did then. This will sound like I'm trying to shit on Hunter, but other than the Foley match at the Rumble, my favorite thing he did in 2000 was the Rikishi title match on Smackdown in January, which is this incredibly fun TV match where HHH is pretty sure he's fucked the minute that he gets to the ring and works like Flair, but good, in that he shows a ton of ass and barely hangs on and you think Rikishi could actually beat him in a rematch at a big show. 

To me with Orton you have the Foley matches, The IC matches against Edge (and the recent Backlash match), V. Benoit twice, v Taker but between that longer stretches of matches where does seemingly nothing but chinlocks like he's lost and has no where else to go.

Hog Pen match is like chamber of horrors get past the silly gimmick and it a solid brawl. His IC stuff against Mero and Rocky is quality mid card work rate. A lot of his TV matches I feel hold up better as he's forced to edit down. V. Kisi, v, Taka, V. Tazz. But between that and the Foley stuff yoy have a lot of Gassbaggery and all the "epic" laying around. I feel the "going long = epic" started with him and plagues a lot of wrestling today

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26 minutes ago, zendragon said:

I feel the "going long = epic" started with him and plagues a lot of wrestling today

This is a good point, though I place most of the blame on everyone losing their minds over Joe and Punk or Joe and Danielson going 45+ just to do it in RoH.

I have a ton of problems with RoH and what, in my view, it and its legacy have done to modern wrestling.

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Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie
6 hours ago, S.K.o.S. said:

There's at least one difficult spot in this one, but you have my permission to look up any unfamiliar Japanese names ?

8:45.

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47 minutes ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

This is a good point, though I place most of the blame on everyone losing their minds over Joe and Punk or Joe and Danielson going 45+ just to do it in RoH.

I have a ton of problems with RoH and what, in my view, it and its legacy have done to modern wrestling.

I find the concepts of blowback in niche and popular wrestling times/moments to be fascinating. The influence of promotions and individuals that for better or worse on future generations of wrestlers. Rey Mysterio being breathtaking and small, ECW having wild shows, the Four Pillars head based offense, Mic Foley putting his body through hell, Ring of Honor having long matches, etc.

Fun stuff. What were other revolutionary or influential moments/ wrestlers/ promotions that deserves mentioning? ALSO, who are people or places now that you think will have an impact on how the kids will want to wrestle in the future? 

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1 hour ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

This is a good point, though I place most of the blame on everyone losing their minds over Joe and Punk or Joe and Danielson going 45+ just to do it in RoH.

Those matches were good, though. Dragon's ROH reign was full of long matches that were all wrestled very differently.

If you wanted to throw out, say, Punk/Hero, I don't think anyone would argue with that.

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Danielson had that stretch in ROH where he went 60 a bunch just because he wanted to and like most 60 minute matches... there was probably a markedly better 40ish minute long match buried in there.

I was in the crowd live when he went to a 60 minute draw with Joe and they telegraphed they were going broadway so blatantly early on half the crowd picked up on it within the first few minutes, it very much did not help the experience of said match at all.

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2 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

This is a good point, though I place most of the blame on everyone losing their minds over Joe and Punk or Joe and Danielson going 45+ just to do it in RoH.

I have a ton of problems with RoH and what, in my view, it and its legacy have done to modern wrestling.

I get what you're saying but I'd think ECW has a more fucked up legacy wrt its influence on the modern scene 

RoH and all the influence its had definitely need to be recognized though, absolutely 

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38 minutes ago, Dog said:

Those matches were good, though. Dragon's ROH reign was full of long matches that were all wrestled very differently.

If you wanted to throw out, say, Punk/Hero, I don't think anyone would argue with that.

Sure, I would agree that some of those matches were good (usually involving Danielson). Goodness or badness doesn't really apply to my argument, though. I'm blaming RoH as a turning point in American wrestling culture that has led to countless long matches that seem to be for the sake of being long. That trend has been bad for pro wrestling, IMO, even if some of the stuff that started it was good. I think it was even more influential on the way modern indie workers approach matches than HHH trying to work like an NWA touring champ on a national weekly show.

It's sort of like ECW having some genuinely entertaining stuff as a part of its legacy, but being a bad influence on modern pro wrestling (again IMO). Most obviously, ECW influencing American wrestling to make the vast majority of brawls wandering and plunder-filled, but in other aspects as well.

Or like all the people influenced by Mick Foley or Shawn Michaels who don't really understand what Mick Foley and Shawn Michaels were trying to do and come off as facsimiles of the originals. You can substitute Chris Benoit (and by proxy, Dynamite) into that sentence if you want. Many of the modern wrestlers who are influenced by Benoit are a facsimile of a facsimile at this point. 

I will argue forever that Kurt Angle would have been better off being influenced by watching a bunch of early-'80s Orndorff rather than by Shawn Michaels and Chris Benoit, but I digress.

7 minutes ago, Hayabusa said:

I get what you're saying but I'd think ECW has a more fucked up legacy wrt its influence on the modern scene 

RoH and all the influence its had definitely need to be recognized though, absolutely 

Sure, I won't argue with anyone who would point to ECW as the entity that negatively influenced modern wrestling more than ECW. That's a fair position to take, and ultimately, I think I agree with it.

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1 hour ago, Octopus said:

I find the concepts of blowback in niche and popular wrestling times/moments to be fascinating. The influence of promotions and individuals that for better or worse on future generations of wrestlers. Rey Mysterio being breathtaking and small, ECW having wild shows, the Four Pillars head based offense, Mic Foley putting his body through hell, Ring of Honor having long matches, etc.

Fun stuff. What were other revolutionary or influential moments/ wrestlers/ promotions that deserves mentioning? ALSO, who are people or places now that you think will have an impact on how the kids will want to wrestle in the future? 

I think, like Shawn Michaels, Curt Hennig influenced the "super-workers should take wild bumps" trend most exemplified by Dolph Ziggler doing somersaults off of the basic offense of other midcarders instead of in big spots. 

It's especially egregious to me because Hennig IMO was incredibly thoughtful about when he took big bumps. As a heel, in a big match against a face opponent, he tended to wrestle with more despair the deeper he got into a big match. If he couldn't put away his opponent, he would start making mistakes - and he'd tire so visibly that when he took a huge bump off a punch or a snapmare or whatever, it was a signal that the tank was on E, and it was about time for his opponent to go for the win. 

His bumping in the Bret Hart matches (SS '91, KotR '93) in particular, I'd point to. He'd bump bigger and bigger as the match went on and he wore down, and it all crescendoed in a notable bump that would pop the crowd because they understood what it meant. 

Take someone like Ziggler as an example, and he tended to bump for whatever, whenever. The bump is about him being athletic and showy, not about how it serves the match. 

(I think Ziggler was influenced more by Michaels, who I think started out pretty thoughtful about big bumping, but ended up not nearly as thoughtful as Hennig about his bumping at some point in the mid-'90s, but my comparison is to illustrate my point.)

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By the same token, I think it's great that pretty much all the slightly bigger rangy dudes- Priest, Sheamus, Drew all clearly look to Scott Hall for inspiration, rather than say Triple H, Austin or Rock. The impact moveset that transitions across face or heel, the selling that doesn't look inauthentic. Much better than just what would amount to spamming the same 3 moves in on loop.

 

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1 hour ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

By the same token, I think it's great that pretty much all the slightly bigger rangy dudes- Priest, Sheamus, Drew all clearly look to Scott Hall for inspiration, rather than say Triple H, Austin or Rock. The impact moveset that transitions across face or heel, the selling that doesn't look inauthentic. Much better than just what would amount to spamming the same 3 moves in on loop.

 

That's a great observation. I never thought of that but there's so much Hall in what those guys do.

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Snuka jumping off the cage being a huge moment for Foley could have connections to being thrown off the Cell.

@SirSmellingtonofCascadia, good shout out with HBK. Both being small and even just the amount of super kicks we see. A lot of the NXT guys like Adam Cole (I believe on the AEW podcast) cite him for molding their ring psychology. 

I would say that the Danielson specifically inspired a lot of the youngsters. Off the top of my head Alan Angels and Daniel Garcia have him as their favorites. Pro or Con towards how we look at wrestling today or even then, I’ll say I have a big soft spot for this period of Danielson and the interesting field of top level American Independent workers (Super Dragon, Necro Butcher, Chris Hero, Punk, Joe, Mike Quackenbush, Low Ki). But I’m going on a tangent and my ramble has lost its point, if I ever was even making on.

To be cute, I’d say the ROH style of long, hard hitting bouts that make in-ring  references to previous encounters (Joe vs Punk, Danielson vs McGuiness) was inspired by 90’s All Japan. Mentioning All Japan, Kingston has his own identity and charismatic swagger but often wrestles like his name is Toshiaki Kobashi with how much he honors them both. I know that can turn a lot of you off but it makes me smile. But my smile isn’t as wide when the Young Bucks play Shawn Michaels? Hmm, Maybe I’m a chop mark? 
LATE NIGHT RAMBLING CONTINUES

Baby is asleep. I’m tired but not sleepy. I’m thinking about Cheese-Its and beer. Wife and I had a good needed conversation about life and getting things off our chests. Both tired and exhausted and life is good but at times when you’re keeping your heads above water you need to vent. So it was good and I’m glad we did. We order delivery, I had a Philly Cheesesteak and she got a burrito. Little Octopus was climbing around and as smiley as ever. I had 2 beers. Thinking about a third, but I also don’t want to get up. I am hungry though. I’ll just keep thinking about wrestling.

Octopus Predicts Who Inspires The Youth (or OPWITY for short) - not saying they’re my favorites, but just people that I could see connecting with  future wrestlers (or NSTMFBJPTICSCWFW for short)

Nick Gage - He really does connect with his passionate fan base on a personal level. I could see a lot of future deathmatch workers with sadly an ounce of his charisma citing him as what got them to fall in love with wrestling. 

Bray Wyatt - Think of the gothic world creating storytellers we could see in the future! We’ve seen this before with Matt Hardy creating his own cinematic universe and the Codyverse had Verse in the title, but Bray is really hitting his reinventing but still continuous lore onto a very grand and consistently talked about level. Say what you will about the wrestling and even the booking, the segments alone have surely captured the imagination of some kids jotting down goblins and mind control in their journals just waiting to unleash their freak flag on the squared circle.

Cinematic Matches - We can point to examples before the pandemic (Lucha Underground, Hollywood Backlot Brawl, Delete Stuff, Bray stuff?) but hot dang some of them during lockdown was fun during a dark time. I loved the Stadium Stampede. I could see a streaming service take a chase and tape several matches that are overly scripted and highly glamorized both in and out of the ring. Mix in sexy actors that can deliver monologues while doing a sunset flip.

Tony Khan - I predict we will see the sons and daughters of more professional sports teams will start a wrestling company. Maybe Minnesota Timberwolves Jr can snag CM Punk when he’s out of his contract? Kenny Omega leaves to sign with lil Toronto Bluejays’ new promotion. Andrade will love working for Buffalo Sabers the Second.

We’ll take a break from OPWITY; NSTMFBJPTICSCWFW for a message from our sponsors:

Are you tired of not knowing the future of wrestling styles and booking theories. Do you want to know the results of PPVs that haven’t even been booked yet? Want the hot new Tenryu review from Matt D before he gets a chance to get on the treadmill? Wait no longer! Call Nostra-Rob-Van-Dam-us! This high flying, spandex wearing stoner will let you know all your wrestling future based questions. Call 1-800-RVD-WEED and he’ll cough his way to telling you the future.

Welcome back to OPWITY; NSTMFBJPTICSCWFW:

Marko Stunt - Shit. Everyone just gets smaller. Why not?

BTE - Maybe you could credit this to Matt Cardona already, but the vlog world has already cultivated a wrestling audience. This is assuming that the internet video is a viable future in media, but it’s safe to say the people that are successful with it have risen their profile through it. Also, with podcasts being pretty crowded with well known stars and legends, the wrestlers who can take the time to be seen and connect with their audience can get Patreon subscribers who will pay to just be a member of their club. That’s on top of actual merchandise. I’ll include Twitch in this. I love Adam Cole not because of his wrestling but because he’s a kind man that plays video games. The UUDD belt feud wear Tyler Breeze was murdering all challengers was the best title run that year. For anyone who doubts that, watch him roast the Miz in the most hilarious clip that I choked from laughing so hard. If the world of social media doesn’t drastically change, we could see a world of more Sammy Guevara types that can get a loyal fan base while traveling the Indies.

Swerve or Darby - I don’t know which or maybe both, but these dudes just move different. Physically, just how their bodies act within the ring. Both have such a cool factor, but I could see people mimicking how they take Irish Whips. Smooth or smoothly chaotic. 

I don’t want to stop writing. Why do I fear sleep? Maybe it’s the unconsciousness? Maybe a lack of control? Maybe it’s being mentally alone, not willing to reply to my internal ramble. But I must.

Edited by Octopus
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