SorceressKnight

Honestly, it seems like it's not just a good reason to wear wrestling shirts and get compliments for it, but it also seems like it's interesting to see the most obscure wrestler for people to "get it" when you see their shirts in public.

Even then, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're two different things. The key for writing good children's entertainment the whole family can enjoy is getting into the sweet spot of "Children want to be treated like they're adults, adults want to feel like they're a kid again." You can hit that sweet spot with a more family-friendly product if you actively try to work at it. Likewise, the "more adult-oriented show" claim is also the problem, since Heyman's run on Raw not being very good showed the problem. The Attitude Era was unpredictable, gave you a feeling that anything could happen, gave you a feeling everyone on the roster was important in their own way, and it felt like it worked. Most of the people who want the Attitude Era or a more adult-oriented program back, however, have been blinded by "Blood, swearing, and scantily clad women"- all the things that wrestling got away from for good reason, and it showed in Heyman's era (the Lashley/Rusev/Lana storyline was the most maligned thing of Heyman's run. Let the record show that storyline was also the single most Attitude Era storyline WWE has done in a long time.) For those things, it all makes sense. Blood no longer works because fans have made it clear they want the wrestlers to be as safe as possible in the ring. Scantily-clad women no longer work because the fans have made it clear that they want the women's wrestlers to be treated with respect, and every fan can realize "ten little girls who want to be Becky Lynch when they grow up" are far, far, far, far, far, (there's not enough fars to really fathom how far this is) more important than "Hollywood Cybernetico in a raincoat." Even swearing could be used, but right now they use it right and have turned them into a high spot. (any time someone says as little as 'bitch' on WWE right now, it's seen as special.)

That just represents something that's effecting all of society, not just pro wrestling, and It ties back to how when we talked about the board history, people were mocking the person who said they got rid of everything except for polo shirts and khakis because "that's how an adult is supposed to dress". People naturally mocked that because that's just no longer the case, and wearing what you want is fine. Examples like that are a picture of the problem seen here: WWF really became big as early as the 1980s, and the children of the '80s and beyond are the first generation that didn't put away their toys when they grew up. That really shows the point of these problems: Traditionally throughout pop culture that has had a lasting influence on the world, the viewers usually go through that same circle of life. Using WWE as that example: You grow up as a Hulkamaniac in the 1980s as a child, in the 1990s as a teenager you grow up and idolize Steve Austin or the Rock in the Attitude Era. Maybe you're still around in the 2000s to watch John Cena, but in all likeliness, by the 2010s you would have likely married, had kids of your own, and be taking those kids to WWE shows with your kids becoming Roman Reigns fans, and from there the circle continues for your children. By contrast, since society would see nothing wrong with an adult still loving WWE at this time, it's kind of thrown that circle of life out of wack. WWE is a kids' show at heart. It always has been, and honestly it always will be. Part of accepting WWE is related to the claims made about demographics in the Wednesday Night War, because to accept WWE you have to realize: It's not ABOUT us anymore. WWE's a kids' show, it's always been a kids show, and we didn't notice that because when we grew up, it did listen to our generation. Because we were kids, watching a kids' show. You can't expect WWE to make shows cater exclusively to an older demographic any more than you can expect Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to start making episodes about having to deal with the mortgage on the sewer while having enough to put in their 401k, and now the doctor told them how much sodium is in pizza and now they're trying to deal with changing up everything before they have a heart condition.

Even going further into the meta-aspect of modern day WWE, it recognizes a bigger problem: Much like the seeds of WCW's downfall were planted during the NWO and Hogan's run, some of WCW's greatest moments, the seeds of the problem with WWE right now were planted in the Attitude Era. The very meta-angle is the same as why top stars get turned against, and how it even went back to Cena and can be traced back to the Austin/McMahon feud. If WWE has made it a plot point as far back as Austin/McMahon that "The McMahon family are evil, and any top star they say is the right choice to be the top star is not to be trusted", how the hell are WWE supposed to get people behind the new era of top stars? At WWE's peak, the show was built around telling the audience to reject the corporate choice, and now everyone they give to the fans are so obviously corporate choices that they already have three strikes against them before they enter the batter's box. Worse yet, as we speak AEW's riding on the wave of "the very nature of WWE is inherently corporate, and just supporting anyone in WWE- even your favorite- is supporting the corporate choice."

Ditto- even if this name doesn't "reflect" who I am there, I also was one of the EWB people. (Doesn't work because I long ignored him here, but still.

@Matt D Honestly, if people think I'm mostly anti-fans, what you said is really the problem that my biggest issue is more than anything. Once the meta-storyline of "WWE vs. The Fans" took hold, the real issue that's hurt the show is in place that we've entered a world where the storyline on TV no longer matters. The ability of writing in WWE or lack thereof is not even an issue anymore, because it just...doesn't matter, and once the actual writing of the show no longer matters, then nothing on the show can possibly matter. The only time WWE seemed to be able to adjust the new storyline for it was in Daniel Bryan vs. The Authority, just because they managed to redirect the Pipebomb from "CM Punk being angry he didn't have John Cena's Spot as the face of the company', and adjust it to a kayfabe-friendly "If you're the WWE Champion, that fact alone means that you're the Face of the WWE and you're the top star in the company", and that was killed when Bryan got injured and WWE made it clear "don't matter, still a B-Plus Player." End result, we're in a level where it's impossible for WWE to matter because...well, nothing matters. The matches don't matter because whatever match happens, the other guy will win next week. The feuds don't matter because they don't have any reason to hate each other that matters. Even the titles don't really matter, because the 2012 Punk turn (and later the Becky Lynch/Charlotte Flair feud) made the plot line "Oh, you think you are THE STAR because you're champ? Make no mistake. You have A BELT. THIS PERSON is THE CHAMP. And even if you beat them? Tomorrow morning you will be you, they will be them, and that means they're STILL THE CHAMP.", and so nothing can possibly change. People are either "haves" or "have-nots" in WWE right now. A Have-Not can win every match, hold the title for decades, and they'll still be seen as a Have-Not, and a Have can lose every match, and they'll still be seen as a Have. How's it possible to fix WWE when nothing matters on the show?

It says something that all likeliness with streaming should have gone "the biggest services just band together, slowly but surely, and eventually develop into a new cable", and somehow it looks worse that it looks more likely each streaming service goes so exclusive you can only get it if you own a streaming box specifically made by them.

Even if it's the result of this fight with Roku: The person who had the audacity to make a Roku channel solely filled with photos of peacocks is what I want to be when I grow up. That's some good bait and switch.

I didn't think I had an addictive personality until the pandemic gave me time and wrestling lost a little joy without the crowds, so I started watching anime again...and ended up buying roughly 80+ full series between Sentai's sale and XBox's sale, between the two at least getting a cross-section of what I missed. Sometimes I wonder why I stopped watching anime as much...then I realized every action series is "person gets sent to a world to stop a demon lord where magic takes the place of technology, everyone works as an adventurer to gain power, an - yeah, it's World of Warcraft. The hero is trying to be the best player in their World of Warcraft server", or that "comedy is no better. You know, maybe my comedic tastes are different, but somehow when there's not only a huge sub-genre of romantic comedies that end with the main character choosing the incest route...but they go FURTHER FROM THAT to make a SECONDARY sub-genre of that subgenre that boils down to "You know, isn't it weird and stupid why the heroes always choose to go incest route?' while the hero...still chooses the incest route..."...and then I realize why it had been so long since I got into it. Adding the recent finished series to the mix, based on "I had so many I put them in a random wheel and let chance tell me what to watch, weighted to series I started": Love Election and Chocolate, Gourmet Girl Graffiti, Kawai Complex Guide, Student Council's Discretion, I couldn't become a Hero, so I reluctantly decided to get a job. I am slowly figuring out just WHY these series were so cheap on Sentai's sale, as "generic" was the best for them.

Honestly, the most outrageous thing for Reigns choosing $500 for the price tag was- when it was leaked pro wrestlers were doing Cameo, didn't Drake Maverick's charge $500 for Cameos as part of a plot point for his gimmick of stodgy jerk heel he was doing (for a "I get $500 to get out of bed in the morning, you want a piece of me you pay this much?") While a top-name WWE star might be $500 worthy, it's kind of bad optics to use the same price of the "stuck up heel on this uses for heel heat" unironically as your pricetag.

This is honestly why I'd say the cinematic matches count this year, just because the rise of cinematic matches is the best example of companies working around all the restrictions they have. The biggest problem with wrestling in this time period is that it shows just how important crowds are to the pro wrestling experience. Without a crowd, it feels like you're watching a dress rehearsal instead of the actual show, and you see why the rehearsals don't have a candle to the live show. Cinematic matches are the best way to work around the restriction with "okay, we can't have crowds to make the match seem more important, let's make matches which aren't intended to be seen in front of a crowd instead"- so they should be counted for "best of 2020."

The big difference between X-Pac Heat and Jarrett Heat (and why before X-Pac, it was called "Bossman Heat") ultimately tied to this difference: With Big Bossman in 1998-99, it was obvious "you're overpushing this guy, he's just NOT a main eventer, get this dude off my TV right now". With X-Pac, he was in the lowercard- but even then, fans cared just enough about X-Pac to want him off their TV ASAP. With Jarrett...it was just nothing. He didn't get Jarrett Heat to become a thing because people didn't like him as a heel. They didn't hate him enough to get him off their TV. They just...didn't care, and the fact the fans didn't care was an even more brutal indictment out of Jarrett than even X-Pac Heat. Jarrett's a pure example of how the opposite of love is not hate, but apathy- and the fans were completely apathetic to Jarrett. Jarrett Heat for how he was hated would be similar to claiming it needed to be Rob Conway Heat for "you could hear a pin drop in the arena the second this loser headed out there".

I thought the only "ring gear"= "win/loss" thing that went through is the seeming rule of thumb: If it's a title match and the challenger is wearing gold, they WILL win the title. If it's a title match and the champion is wearing gold, they will LOSE the title. It seems to be equivalent to the other, similar rule of "If the announcers mention how many days the champion's held the belt, the title is changing hands tonight" for title changes.

Honestly, if X-Pac never became the 1-2-3 Kid...I think this is one of those "...but the future refused to change" things. There's almost no sign that "Sean Waltman evolving from the 1-2-3 Kid to become X-Pac" doesn't seem 100% inevitable. First off, it seems like Sean Waltman in the WWF in 1996-97 just was never going to happen anyway. The 1-2-3 Kid was always JUST big enough a name that if they shunted him into the Light Heavyweight division to be the lynchpin of it, it'd feel like Neville/Kalisto where "yeah, you may be making this guy a franchise player for the division...but this is OBVIOUSLY a demotion and we all know it" things- and Waltman would be in with HHH/Shawn and they'd never let him be that demoted at the time anyway IF he stayed in WWF. More than likely, HHH/Shawn protect Waltman, and he...becomes X-Pac in WWF. Even the best case scenario for The 1-2-3 Kid with 1996-97- "Waltman is loaned to ECW" could have been a good tag team, but even knowing ECW would know how good Waltman was in the ring (and the matchups ECW had would have been REALLY good), it is pretty obvious ECW would have eaten The 1-2-3 Kid alive. That gimmick was the exact level of corny white-meat aw-shucks babyface that ECW despised in all its forms, and they would HAVE to repackage Sean Waltman to make it work...inevitably making him X-Pac in ECW. So, from this level, it seems likely that the "Waltman jumps to WCW with Hall and Nash" was inevitable. However, even in this case, the 1-2-3 Kid was bound to fail in a WCW ring. If we assume Waltman goes to WCW, AND we also assume Hall/Nash don't get him in the NWO [likely making the Syxx turn happen], AND we also assume he's the 1-2-3 Kid in the WCW Cruiserweight Division...Waltman is STILL doomed as the 1-2-3 Kid. The x-factor (pardon the pun) there would be that Billy Kidman was running around the Cruiserweight division too. Like Waltman, Kidman was a blandly aw-shucks babyface who looked like he was too young to be in a wrestling ring- but Kidman was using more impressive high-flying moves. Shit, the two's names were even close enough, and Kidman and Waltman looked JUST enough like each other, that if someone thought that Billy Kidman was the 1-2-3 Kid running around WCW, you couldn't exactly mock them for thinking it. Put Sean Waltman and Billy Kidman in the same cruiserweight division, and Waltman just couldn't win- meaning he'd need to be repackaged anyway...inevitably making him Syxx, then X-Pac.

Fair, but that helps Avalon's case, since Disco's job was always also to be a jobber, and there was no expectation other than that. Maybe a couple times he got a slight push and had something to do in those rare times he exceeded expectations, but ultimately Disco was just a jobber and never exactly a big star in the company either. By contrast, Waltman and Jarrett had been in the title picture, but I'd say the more essential part was "these guys were such net-negatives on the show, and had so much negative-WAR (for the analytic claim), that both WWF and WCW willingly let this guy walk away to the rival promotion in the midst of the war without problem" that matches them to Spears. Hell, Waltman/Jarrett's level even makes Spears more pathetic in the "he was a genuine steal from WWE into a promotion as new as AEW, and all it bought him was one uppercard match before falling to his normal 'generic opening match guy" thing. Hell, you may have to go as far down as Barry Horowitz to get a guy that matches Spears who jumped in the MNWs with "they were a jobber in WWF, they're a jobber in the new promotion. Hell, they may be WORSE OFF in the new promotion- at least in WWE they had a fun catchphrase to have a semblance of a crowd reaction."

I don't know if Spears is good enough to be the Disco of the current war. Spears seems more like the Sean Waltman/Jeff Jarrett of the war, in the "Yes, we know that the second we release you, you intend to jump ship to the other promotion, but honestly, we don't really give a shit if you go there. You want to be on their show? Run to them. Go be their problem now." At least Disco could be slightly higher at something like, say, The Librarians for "comedy act that isn't that good."

Exactly my point. If Enzo was a certified G, then there must be a certification in order to get properly classified as a G. If you cannot teach that, it stands to reason it's just some paperwork. Just go down to City Hall, fill out the G paperwork, and you too can be a certified G. To be a bonafide stud...well, that's why Enzo's teaching lessons on OnlyFans, how you doin'?

Well, in defense, The Great Khali was able to have a very successful wrestling school in India- if Khali can do it, Enzo can. Still kind of useful- hopefully his courses tell people exactly which paperwork you have to fill out to get your G certification.

@Elsalvajeloco Honestly, those things probably explain why pro wrestling is still so "up to date" more than anything. Ultimately, Wrestling is niche, but "niche" is the mainstream right now. With how inclusive and how welcoming popular culture is right now, there's no longer one distinct way to experience culture at this point and time- and in all likeliness, there never will be again. We're in a post-zeitgeist society: Any specific person now has the power to decide what culture is important to them, personally- and then they can curate their cultural experience to reflect what they already decided was important to them. While previous cultural shifts had a distinct form and feel to it, in this time period, pop culture is whatever you, personally, want it to be. With that in mind, you can't have ONE gimmick that specifically dictates how pro wrestling represents popular culture at large, because pop culture is "I care about this thing, and that fact makes this thing culturally important." You can't have your finger on the pulse of society anymore, because the pulse of society is YOUR pulse, and what YOU like matters, and anything you don't like is completely unimportant.

Hogan vs. Slaughter at Mania 7 seemed like it shouldn't have been a regular match, and it probably hurt a little bit more with the problem. Considering on the house show loop before/after Wrestlemania, they were doing similar stuff, if Hogan/Slaughter was an I Quit match, it probably works far better than it turned out as a whole. Yes, Hogan was never exactly a submissions expert- but hey, Slaughter was able to get people to tap out to a noogie at the time, so it's not like Hogan had to break out some amazing submission to counter it.

Even on the shot, it also kind of ignored that being on the list of "actual good things WWE has done in the past"- rather than being spun into a WWF shot: He had agreed to terms with WWF to come in during 1989, but the deal was held off due to his getting super-sick on the South African tour. When he got better on the comeback road, WWF lived up to the agreement and went through it.

In addition to that, it ties to the other point: Pro wrestling's in a perfect spot for the current TV climate, since it's a scripted series with a big cult following anyway who'll watch it, but at the same time it's still considered a sport, and thus falls under the "sports are all-important DVR-proof live programming." This despite the fact that WWE has always had notably good +3/+5/+7 DVR ratings. Honestly, that makes sense, but it's almost weird it hasn't happened for Fyter Fest. If the world has fallen apart and is just rebuilt enough so that there's no limitation of wrestlers in the ring, you'd think they could put The Match Beyond on one of these two events.

Just took stock of my collection, and even accounting for "they had to be accused of something in the course of #SpeakingOut, not previously" it didn't come out well: For autographs, I had Austin Aries and Velveteen Dream (both at least as part of NXT posters from live events autographed by many of the people on the show), and 8X10s of Jack Swagger, Jack Gallagher, Lanny Poffo, Austin Theory, and Joey Ryan. As far as T-shirts, I had two Marty Scurll shirts (his Elite shirt and his British Bootcamp shirt), Chase Owens's Bullet Club shirt, Bull Dempsey's Bull-Fit shirt, Will Ospreay's shirt from Hot Topic, Austin Aries's pink/black TNA shirt, Matt Riddle's first NXT shirt, Jack Swagger's 2010 shirt while WHC, and Velveteen Dream's first NXT shirt. Luckily I have a large collection of both or this would really hurt.

That's ultimately something to keep in mind- people are complex. It's possible for someone to do something good once, but also be rotten as well.

Even beyond just a AEW vs. WWE thing, it still should also be said that even if things are bad right now, considering how things throughout Florida are really, really bad, the fact AEW and WWE are just getting hit now bypasses "they handled this poorly", and bypassed "even the law of averages should say they should have been hit by now", and goes to "...tell the truth, it's kind of impressive AEW and WWE lasted this long without seriously getting hit." Even with Florida exploding, WWE and AEW got hit about a week or two after NHL and MLB got hit.