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Kev

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Everything posted by Kev

  1. Yeah, you’re right. In terms of how the shows are produced, this stuff is mainly for the cameras (the Rumble with HBK shouting at Khali to pose into the hard cam comes to mind). I’m thinking more in terms of the sort of kayfabe behind it. It makes sense that guys would pose and show off to a live crowd. It also makes sense to pose and show off for the cameras, except in WWE nobody really acknowledges the cameras during entrances or matches (ironically, unless it’s part of their set routine like Cena). So you have this weird situation where guys are posing for cameras without actually acknowledging those cameras.
  2. The set entrance routines stand out as particularly stupid in an empty arena. It’s kind of symbolic of a wider lack of creativity in how little WWE has adapted its presentation for the pandemic era shows. The fact that they thought the answer was to go even louder (visually) with the Thunderdome setup seems ridiculous to me.
  3. Maybe I just ignore the obviously bad takes, but I think the AEW discussion on here is usually fairly balanced. Personally, I really like AEW but I still watch with a critical eye, as I would anything else, and like to think about what could have been done better, I think a lot of AEW ‘criticism’ I see on here is in this vein and is generally good natured. On the sports-centric talk, AEW is very much sports entertainment and that’s absolutely fine by me. I think they mostly fall on the right side of wrestling ridiculousness (OC, the wedding, attempting to take a man’s eye out, etc.) and the bad stuff they’ve generally course corrected on pretty quickly (pretty much anything Brandi related, and I’d also put the early Hardy stuff in this bracket as I think that gimmick was well past its sell by date). For years the talking point has been about a real alternative to WWE, and that’s maybe a bit of a red herring. I think the audience for anything overly sports-centric would be pretty niche, I’d suggest that most of the audience just wanted well done sports entertainment. And by improving on some of WWE’s weak points (meaningful matches, logical structure, not treating the audience with contempt) I think AEW has largely succeeded, but there’s still a lot of room to build, the bar should obviously be higher than “well at least it’s not WWE”.
  4. I’ll start off with an old man shouts at clouds section. Can everyone please fuck of with all the cutter variations. One of the most over moves ever (seriously, there must be an alternative timeline where Orton sticks with the play of the day/overdrive finish and never gets a world title run) and so many guys just have meaningless/shitty versions of it. Why does Kenta have purple hair? Dudes about 40, between that and the weak GTS I don’t think it was a great intro for him. I thought Excalibur’s sell of this was a bit much as well, talking about the briefcase and Mox’s title, none of this is stuff that’s been established in AEW. I don’t think Chaos Project should be on tv but to be fair they’ve got the minimum amount of offense to be taken as a credible threat and been otherwise squashed, which is fine. I’m liking how Page has just been dominant against the various jabronies the last few weeks. Hopefully the stuff with Hardy doesn’t last too long, I know he has some name value but his whole act is cheap and should be beneath Page. Page calling him out on his shit and a decisive victory is all that’s really needed here, maybe throw in a 6 man with PP and DO. They messed up the shot but it was nice to see Jake seemingly with a big smile on his face and patting Angelico on the back after taking him out.
  5. Another point which I think sort of underpins the whole staleness/guys around forever talk is that, despite the various shows and belts, there’s no real logical structure to anything that happens or even any clear hierarchy a lot of the time. The WWE/Universal, IC/US, both sets of tag belts are completely interchangeable (didn’t they just outright swap the tag belts between teams last year?). What motivates a former world champ to go for the IC/US belt? Why can some guys just skip the IC/US level? Why do relative scrubs like Elias or No Way Jose get promoted from NXT? Why was Santana Garrett in the women’s Rumble ahead of multiple NXT women that are featured more regularly? I could go on forever with this, but I think it all contributes to the staleness, there’s just a general sense that nothing really matters and it never feels like guys are facing different challenges. I do think if there was a bit more logic to what was going on then you could create better long term story arcs for people, which would help character development and maybe prevent some of the staleness. This isn’t the thread for it but I think it would be interesting to try plotting out character arcs for some of these guys to see if they actually make any sense (I’d suggest Rollins actually has the dots to plot out a really good character arc since the start of his run, but in execution the story telling has often been a let down).
  6. Completely agree with this, having not watched in a while it stood out to me how many guys still felt really stale in the men’s Rumble. A combination of guys having reached their ceiling long ago and having little to no character progression. I think a lot of these are good performers but there’s Sheamus, Miz, Ziggler, Orton. Even relatively new guys like Elias, Corbin and Strowman. Morrison, who was away for years ,came back and regressed to a character he was doing 10+ years ago. Kane who’s been part-time/away for a few years just never feels like he’s been gone for any length of time in 20 years so a surprise comeback feels meaningless. I’d even kind of put someone like Cesaro in this same stale bracket but with him there’s at least that hope that they’ll finally give him a main event run.
  7. I don’t know if I’d describe her as inauthentic, I can kind of buy that she thinks all that stuff is cool. I do think the whole aesthetic is incredibly lame though, but I’m probably not the audience. For me, your description kind of fits better for Toni Storm. She’s good in-ring but she comes off as really annoying and forced. Ever since I first saw her I thought she screamed heel, I see they’ve turned her now but based on the rockstar references they’re still trying to sell her as cool. The rockstar thing (why? Because she wears a leather jacket) should be that she’s a try-hard poser, particularly in contrast to someone like Rhea who really sells her character well.
  8. Haven’t watched the men’s match yet but some initial thoughts, haven’t read the thread yet to avoid spoilers. This is the 1st WWE show I’ve watched since MITB. Really don’t like the Thunderdome setup, just loud and ugly, and still lacks any real atmosphere. It’s been said a million times but what the fuck is with the camera cuts, was really noticeable at points having not watched in a while. Seriously what is the logic of these moments where there’s 4-5 cuts within a matter of seconds? What effect is it meant to achieve? Goldberg/Drew was fine but uninteresting. I like when they mix up the main event formula, but as with suplex city Brock it’s been diminishing returns, you really need to tweak the formula to keep it interesting, they didn’t do anything here, it was just my turn, kick out, your turn, kick out, etc. Bianca felt like the right choice, I wonder whether never pulling the trigger on her in NXT has helped her long term as they’ve been able to build her a bit slower on the main roster. By contrast, Rhea already seems like she’s lost a lot of momentum and I’m less optimistic of how high she can go than last year. The end sequence was nicely done and really felt it could go either way. Some nice eliminations dotted throughout, the Bayley powerbomb, Santana, Nikki. The Billie stuff was good. The Alexa stuff seemed embarrassing but luckily was cut off quickly, is she supposed to be face? And are they trying to get Lana over as a face? Even with the Nia elimination she just looked pathetic and stupid. Nia also looked stupid eliminating her partner with so many still left. Weird choice in recapping the women’s tag after the Rumble despite the angle playing into the match. The 24/7 stuff is embarrassing and the joke is beyond dead at this point. Not a big fan of the style but the LMS was quite well done. Thought they maintained a violent feel between the high spots, could have done with blood though. The handcuff spot was a really good ‘near fall’, I actually bought that despite thinking Owens had no chance.
  9. And after a little more digging (flicking through Rumble wiki entries), Goldust is also up there with 21 (97-18) and was even close to topping it as he was on the 91 card teaming with Dusty but not the match itself.
  10. Yeah, that looks like the top 5 (Taker, JJ, Duggan, Edge, HBK). Thought Kane might be higher but he hasn’t been in a Rumble since 16 so he’s at 20 (96 debut as Yankem).
  11. Sounds right, I didn’t realise he’d appeared as late as that, assumed his last appearance was when he had that short roster run around 07ish. My initial thought was HBK but he’s only at 21 years (89-10).
  12. Just watching the 92 Rumble and it prompted a random thought (I don’t remember this ever being covered in one of those by the numbers videos). What’s the longest timeframe covered by Rumble appearances (not most appearances or biggest gap between appearances, just longest time between first and last appearances)? After some quick checks I’m thinking it’s Taker with 26 years (91-17) and possibly Jarrett in no.2 with 25 (94-19 - I would have completely forgotten him if I hadn’t looked up the 19 match). Am I missing anyone?
  13. I think its supposed to be that Kenny hasn’t wanted to completely turn his back on his best friends so Callis has been manipulating him to get to that point, e.g. antagonising the Bucks and potentially faking their attack on him or at least overplaying it.
  14. Finally caught the Walter-Dragunov match. Haven’t seen any pandemic era NXT UK as I gave up the network but it’s on the free version. Firstly the arena setup looks shit, the mini thunder dome thing which went off halfway through and the logos/belt pics everywhere are ugly. Not sure how limited they were based on UK restrictions but I wish they’d just spread 20 or so of the roster around ringside to add a bit atmosphere. The match lived up to the hype and was as brutal as talked up. Only thing I disliked was Dragunov’s 619 rebound clothesline as it just doesn’t look like it generates any extra momentum. Loved the desperation of the sloppy running knee towards the end when he realised he couldn’t hit the headbutt again. This was how you do an epic where the near falls really feel earned (plus they weren’t overdone). Also really like going from one last big near fall straight to Walter just choking him out.
  15. You’re right it is being played pretty straight, as you describe, but given the histories of those involved and the fact that they are aligned (albeit tenuously), I think there is a level of ambiguity there that leaves it open for a swerve. Even it plays out as expected, it’s that ambiguity which is helps make it shocking/satisfying when the Bucks get truly fucked over/have enough of their shit. This is probably wishful thinking and me reading too much into things (I think Bucks going heel is the more interesting direction character-wise and because of the power dynamic it creates) but the fact that the Bucks have played it pretty straight as faces is what makes me think a swerve may be coming. Plus stuff like the off-camera Callis attack and the Good Brothers replacing them in the 6 man could easily be retconned as the Bucks being in on some sort of long con.
  16. Yeah, I agree to an extent, although the Bucks role here makes a lot more sense than it did in the FTR feud. I think this is part of why I’d have Bucks go heel as well, they’ve teased it enough now that they should really pull the trigger. I wonder whether the Cody-Shaq stuff is part of why this is getting dragged out, they’re maybe waiting on Cody being freed up to insert him into this angle. Having the Bucks go heel and the majority of the EVPs being aligned with Callis would be an escalation with the balance of power really shifting to them, and a fairly logical step for Cody to get involved. I’d agree they need to define some stakes at some point but I’m happy to give AEW the benefit of doubt on this and let it play out. I’m seeing this part of the story as Moxley’s attempted revenge, potentially with him getting written out soon, then you start to bring in Cody and Hangman stories down the line. I don’t mind the slower place of the angles and they’re doing a decent job of weaving the likes of Death Triangle and even Private Party into the wider story so there’s different strands to it. Also, particularly in the pandemic era it’s understandable that they’re maybe hoping to save some big matches/moments for live crowds.
  17. Oh and I generally like grumpy JR when it’s in the context of the match, pointing out mistakes, etc., I think it makes his praise feel more earned. But he’s becoming increasingly annoying to me. The sarcastic comment after the Red Velvet promo, the angle is shit but he still shouldn’t be undermining it and it came at the expense of the new face who actually cut a decent promo. Plus some of the digs/dismissals of Excalibur come across as mean-spirited. It stinks of the shit you get in WWE with commentators constantly sniping at each other. At least the Mike Bailey reference was kind of relevant to a decent part of AEW’s audience, I’m not sure who JR is appealing to with some of the weird references he pulls out.
  18. Pretty much exactly what you’d want from Kingston/Archer, and I think the booking was right, Kingston hasn’t really picked up enough wins and Archer wasn’t hurt given how dominant he was. Liked the reference to Archer maybe indulging himself dishing out more punishment without Jake’s guidance, that little comment gets across the nature of his character, the importance of the manager and adds a little vulnerability to his game. Was probably just the lighting but I was thinking Sting had dyed his hair. Been enjoying Garrison’s hot tag over recent weeks, great Stinger splash. I feel like Pillman looks too sleazy for the slightly characterless, up and coming babyface role, should get rid of the mullet and/or beard. Nemeth looked really low-rent and doing a number of his brother’s spots was a bad choice if he wanted to stand out as anything other than Dolph’s brother randomly getting a shot. Liking the build up of Page though and adding another layer to the story. As everyone has said the Tarzan boy theme is a great touch and should be great with full crowds. Nice match, I was just thinking the finish looked a bit weak on the thicker dude, but then the variation made it look a lot better. Nice visual of Luchasuarus hanging in the ropes after the beat down. I like the whole build around the Bullet Club stuff, they’ve built tension so you can logically have the Bucks split off again but I could still see there being a swerve. Personally, I’d have the Bucks go full heel, I don’t think their characters have ever really come across as likeable and it always felt like that was part of the Hangman story (e.g. he was right not to trust them) but that kind of feels like it got dropped during the build to FTR/Page & Omega. Nice chaotic feel to the aftermath as well, that’s been done well the last few weeks.
  19. Ah and is it just me or does Hook really look like Starks?
  20. Lovable weirdos is the best presentation of Dark Order, the aborted He Said Yes celebration was legit funny. I wonder whether they retain some heel elements though, seems like too big a stable for faces. I’m also not sure I’d have Page join, although should definitely have their back at some point, feels like too much of a drop down for him. Cody’s cutter looked shit, thought he covered well for the (presumed) leap frog botch though. Top Flight need to work on some of their double teams, they’ve either botched or done some overly convoluted stuff in most of their matches I’ve seen. Was most impressed by Comorato’s bumping with the Hart chest bump off the corner charge and the tree fall sell for the finish. Like that they gave a reason for him being in the match. I thought the Kenny’s house segment was quite well done, although Matt is a dreadful actor, which stands out more as Nick comes across quite natural. The off-camera black eye leaves a few options open, I’m still wondering whether it could be an elaborate setup with the Bucks in on it. What was with Callis getting rid of the cameraman but the camera staying there, were we supposed to think the cameraman just left his camera?
  21. I generally like Cody but masked and Stardust were two of my least favourite gimmicks, just really cringey stuff. Some of those gimmick tweaks were done quite naturally (rookie>Legacy, Dashing>masked) but some were slightly out of nowhere (the Dashing gimmick was very much him switching brands, going solo and suddenly having a new character). I would put some blame on WWE though for him maybe not being able to reach a higher ceiling. It’s a bit symptomatic of the short-termism of a lot of their booking, guys can be around for a long time but it rarely feels like there’s any long term story arcs or natural character progression, so despite all these gimmick tweaks Cody felt stale because he was largely around the same level no matter what he was doing.
  22. On the topic of match length, @Goodear and @Godfreyhave touched on this but I think some matches could be used to better establish character traits and the wider hierarchy in the company. I think the talk of match length is a bit of a red herring, if you want to fill 10-15 mins with Omega v Janella or The Bucks v TH2 that’s fine, but there could be more variation in the stories being told. For me, it too often feels like guys are just fitting their opponents into their standard template, which is kind of a condensed version of their epics. They could also be using these sort of matches to give some credibility to some secondary finishers, e.g. I’d like to see Omega finish with the tiger driver sometimes as that’s a killer move. The example that comes to mind is Angle, he’d often be quite generous and try to make guys lower on the card look good, but he would pretty much just wrestle the same match every time - opponent shocks him early by out-grappling him, Angle slam kick out, escape of the ankle lock, etc. - I’m not sure anyone really got much rub from this as it was just a typical Angle match. If everyone is special then nobody is special. I’d agree with others that this was the best Cage has looked, him spamming all these big moves actually makes sense in the context of him fighting the never-say-die underdog. The GMSI in concept could actually be quite clever in that it gives him a built-in vulnerability while still being a beast, but nothing in the way he wrestles ever puts across any particular stories around this.
  23. Echoing a few comments but for me AEW has done well to achieve a different feel around the product, which I think was really important as a new company. I remember @El Gran Gordimaking a point recently about a community type of feeling (probably butchering what he actually said), which is definitely part of it. But mainly for me, it’s just that they’ve created a mostly believable ‘universe’ - meaningful matches, logical show structures, friendships/alliances which aren’t established purely for specific storylines, etc. This should be obvious stuff but it’s refreshing to actually see it done well (mostly) and not feel like your intelligence is being insulted. They’re maybe getting a bit more ambitious now with another show and the inter-promotional stuff, which will be a different challenge but I think getting some of these basics right early on gives them a good foundation to build on.
  24. Agree with the sentiment on Brock. I know he has his critics but I’d largely put the issues down to poor booking (although no doubt he’s been going through the motions at times). He still has an aura that nobody really comes close to, can make someone look good with a bump or two (and is a great bumper), and doesn’t seem to have a problem doing jobs. I’d argue almost every job he’s done since his return has been a mistake in hindsight (a combo of poor follow-up, bad timing, or just simply the wrong guy). His momentum in 2014/15 coming off the streak ender and Cena squash was really wasted. I’d have given him the dominant title run for a year/year and a half before putting someone over (clean) at Summerslam or Mania. My choice would be Cesaro (I’m not sure any of the Shield guys really needed that kind of big win to be solidified as main eventers). They could have built a nice story with Cesaro having a parallel dominant run in the mid-card as a Heyman guy before he breaks out to challenge Brock after having Heyman favour Brock and try to duck the match.
  25. First time posting here after lurking for about 15 years (never been big on posting to message boards/social media but I spend enough time thinking about this stuff that I thought I may as well share) Ended up watching two Rumbles - 2000 & 2010 - today as WWE has been posting some of the full matches on YouTube. Seemed like a tidy timeframe for comparison (sorry if this is wrong thread but didn’t think it was current enough for the rumble thread). Firstly it’s nice to see the crowd for the 00 match being hot in the ‘right’ places, they actually like the faces and for a relatively ‘smart’ crowd (MSG) even go with cheesy stuff like Too Cool dancing (assuming it hasn’t been edited too much). It’s just much more enjoyable to watch when the crowd actually seems to enjoy themselves, rather than having a feeling of underlying hostility. The shift to the more recent layout was noticeable, where you have a lot more guys coming in and getting some shine, running through their spots. I think my ideal would probably be somewhere in between. Some of the older matches could feel like you’d have nobody doing much for long stretches, but the shine spots can be a bit overdone in the more recent matches, e.g in the 10 match you have Carlito hitting 3 or 4 backstabbers in a row which feels pointless. In the 00 match Backlund comes in as the surprise and doesn’t even get a chicken wing spot, is kind of just there for a couple of minutes. My main takeaway was basically how the Rumble highlights how stale WWE feels like it’s gotten over the years. In 2000 you’ve got 0 entrants that were in the 90 Rumble (Bossman was on the 90 card but not the match). There’s 4 repeat entrants from 00-10, plus HHH and M. Hardy who were on the 00 card. From 10-20 that rises to 8, plus there’s various guys on the card and it just generally felt like most of the guys were still around (plus 4 or 5 now in AEW). I had other random thoughts (HBK’s dreadful acting, Show being on his 5th heel/face alignment after less than a year in the company, etc.) but I’ll leave it there as this feels long.
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