Kev

My instinct is the 01-04 era where you had the former top WCW guys gradually coming in, plus the likes of Eddie, Edge, Cena, etc. in the midcard. Looking at the Manias around then, the most stacked looks like XX, I got 22 WWE world champs in matches, plus Austin as a ref, an Impact champ (Bubba), ROH (Noble) and NWA (Conway). I’m not sure on women’s title reigns, but you’ve got at least 3 there as well (Sable, Molly, Victoria). Some of the multi-man match PPVs (Survivor Series, Eliminatuon Chamber, MITB) during a brand split have got to be high as well. Looking at Survivor Series’ in the late 00s early 10s, the most I got was 19 (if we count Matt Hardy’s WWECW reign).

Maybe they convinced the commission by letting them know the end explosion would be a dud, it all makes sense now.

The pedant in me demands to know, how come the main was not sanctioned but an exploding barbed wire death match was?

I’m a couple days late and I haven’t read the thread yet so I’m sure I’ll be repeating taking points here but here’s my thoughts: Ooof, Cody-Penta wasn’t very good was it? Cody kinda killed off all his finishers in quick succession, then got a pin straight off Penta’s arm breaker for good measure. Cody is just massively inconsistent in terms of character work and in-ring. The Callis-Bucks promo would have been good 6 months ago but made no sense considering they’ve been tag champs for almost 5 months. Jade squash was fine, liked the wild German, I’d just let Jade pad out her record with quick squashes and try to show off some different strength/athleticism spots for a couple of months. Try not to expose her with too much competitive stuff yet. MJF stable promo was good, Spears again stood out like a sore thumb though, who picked his suit FFS. 10 man was fine. I think pretty much everything about Private Party works better as heels. Marko continues to show nothing to justify why he should be there, he really needs to be doing something more impressive than missile dropkicks to come off as even the most minor threat. Nice promos from Mox/King & Christian. Tag was ok, Good Brothers just aren’t very interesting though. Still have no interest in conflicted face Bucks in this story, a Bucks/Good Brothers match isn’t an exciting prospect and I’m not sure where else you go with this. I still maintain that a swerve and heel turn is the much better direction for them. I don’t think Jake really adds anything to Archer at this point, and may even be slightly detrimental, particularly when he’s standing there at the same height talking about him as a monster. I’d like to think there’s still a place for him but I can’t think of who he’d work well with. Fenix/Angelico was cool while it lasted, love how Angelico gets across his submission style and makes it feel like a clash of styles every time he shows up. I think they’re actually gradually heating up Miro quite nicely now. The hopefully impending split with Kip feels long overdue despite them not really being a team that long. Nice main, they really let them go all out, the finish in particular looked killer.

Did I miss a Fire Thunder Driver mention? Pretty much every driver is cool isn’t it? Are there any bad drivers? Either names or the moves themselves?

I always thought a tiger bomb was the none sit-out version, basically a powerbomb with the undertook setup like Malenko would use. I always like the destroyer name (Canadian or otherwise), but the move has been overused/nearfall’d to the point it doesn’t deserve its name anymore.

I take umbrage with this. I always thought that was cool, I can’t fault a Springsteen reference. On that note, what about move names that reference songs/musicians?

Yeah, fair enough, I’m probably substituting larger-than-life for goofy/gimmicky here.

Sorry, not sure whether I’m misunderstanding your point or my point has been a bit lost as I was cross referencing another thread. I’m not suggesting a larger than life character doesn’t work (wrestling is full of examples proving otherwise), but there was a point in the other thread about larger-than-life characters still working better when they’re linked to a relatable narrative or relatable characteristics. In the couple of appearances I’ve seen, I think Itoh’s character works in a vacuum, but seems to be a slightly one dimensional wacky character. If you flesh that out with more on her interesting backstory and even the stuff about her hard head (seems to be a couple of different explanations in the thread but either works depending on which way they want to take her character) then you’ve got a much more compelling character which helps when trying to get her over to a wider audience. It goes back to probably my main criticism of AEW, which is bringing in guys relatively cold and relying on the audiences existing knowledge of them as indie/international stars (which in some cases is only gonna be a small portion of the audience).

All this stuff about Itoh’s background is interesting and, if she is gonna have a longer run, it’s exactly the type of stuff they should do video packages on to bring the audience up to speed on. It links to the discussion about larger-than-life vs. relatability in the main monthly thread. She’s been introduced as this larger-than-life but slightly one dimensional wacky character, if you add that backstory of overcoming past failures and being on this sort of redemption arc then it fleshes out her character and could make her more relatable to a wider audience.

I was just watching Marko Stunt hitting a ridiculously co-operative looking head scissors on QT Marshall. In comparison, these 3 seconds are my platonic ideal for undersized dude hitting credible looking flying offence on a bigger guy.

Dynamite and Dark Elevation were my first time seeing Maki Itoh. Clearly massively charismatic and I thought she was pretty smooth in-ring at times, but then some of her stuff just looked really bad. Her strikes, in particular, looked comically weak to the point I was thinking it must be deliberate for whatever reason. Also, is there some sort of back story to her hard head gimmick? Having this little cutesy character have a gimmick that’s traditionally been associated with savage characters is quite funny, but it seems a bit strange that it’s seemingly being played relatively straight. She’s probably charismatic enough to overcome it, but it again feels like they’ve introduced someone relatively cold when they could have benefited from a bit more build/backstory.

Being in the UK, I’m always a day or 2 behind by the time I catch up, so my hot takes are more mild at best once I get to the thread, but nonetheless. I generally think Omega’s been handled well in AEW, but this was the first time I really thought he shouldn’t be a top guy. His whole presentation here just came off as cheap and inauthentic. I actually like some of these things as heel touches (the dancers, the douchey outfits, the entourage) but all together it just didn’t work for me here. Honestly, I think the key is to just limit his mic time, it works in short doses but this was too much. I think he could do with upgrading his back up as well, I still think they should align The Bucks with him as they’re not likeable as faces. This was the most impressed I’ve been with Sky. It helps that he has Darby bumping for him but I much preferred him as de facto heel, with the relatively simplistic and vicious offence. Much better than being generic athletic face, he really didn’t stand out in that role considering you have the likes of Fenix on the roster doing much more impressive stuff. Still not convinced he has much more upside but this was a positive step.

Yeah, this was my first thought. Maybe it wasn’t actually that well done considering the ref doesn’t bother to check what’s happening as Austin’s music plays. But you can’t argue with those pops and the joy of the win.

Andrade has to be a no-brainer for AEW (assuming he wants to go). Maybe strange to say but I think he’s just in the sweet spot for guys WWE misused (and I think this applies for Black too). He’s still young enough that he (hopefully) hasn’t peaked. I think he was genuinely well booked in NXT, so there is somewhat of a precedent for him as a top guy in the US. There was flashes of him being treated as a future star on the main roster. Although he had a 2-3 year run, he had spells out so he’s never really gotten stale and fell into JAG territory. I think the fact that he never really got a shot at the main event even works in his favour as it genuinely seems like they’re losing a future star, rather than someone jumping ship after reaching their ceiling in WWE.

A couple of thoughts I just remembered. This is a nitpick as I like all the teams I’m gonna mention but, considering how deep the tag division is, I wonder if they’re going to the well too many times giving shots to relatively new/makeshift teams (Page/Omega, PAC/Fenix, Jericho/MJF). I don’t think Wight understands the concept of a clue. Using the debuting guy’s, as yet unused, new catchphrase as a tease makes no sense. Part of his scoops gimmick should be him giving completely illogical clues, maybe throw in a dash of overhype. “Up next we have a BEAST of a Dynamite debut from someone who could be the Next Big Thing in AEW...it’s Ryzin, who you may know from losing dozens of matches on Dark.

Ah yeah, agree I wouldn’t have had him win here, I was speaking more generally about needing to win, I just wouldn’t have had him in at all. I’ve not really seen much of him but I’m guessing he’s a bit more of a character guy, given the nickname. It reminds me of NXT bringing in EC3 in a ladder match a few years back. For someone who’s biggest exposure is Impact, I really wouldn’t be bringing them in ‘blind’ unless it’s someone who’s gonna get over with movez.

The multi-man ladder match is a completely dead gimmick at this point and I thought it was really stupid having one here. It really didn’t feel like the reward was worth the risk. I defended Janela getting a title shot recently and I like how they mostly did open challenges with Cody, but that just made this feel more out of place. Why put your body through this when any one of these guys could feasibly get a shot anyway? If you’re gonna use one of these to debut someone you need them to win it or be a big spot guy that can do something ridiculous to get over. That did nothing for Page. I assumed the awkward waiting on the ramp was because we were getting a Cody turn where he feigns injury before stealing the victory, but it was just awkward. I know they gave Sky a bit of a push early on, but he hasn’t done anything of note in ages and he really doesn’t feel like someone who has much of a higher ceiling. It’ll really have been an underwhelming run for Darby if he loses on Wednesday. So presumably Mox was meant to be written off for paternity leave here. I’m assuming they’ll not have him go out on that ending so there’ll maybe be an injury angle on Dynamite over the next few weeks where they can re-do Kingston’s redemption in someway. Maybe have Kingston take some kind of hit for Mox, only for them to take out Mox afterwards anyway. Keep it simple with a Pillmanizer or something. Then have a half injured King seeking revenge while Mox is out.

My main issue with those pins is they’re almost always used close to the ropes and completely telegraph the foot on the rope spot. I don’t know why more guys don’t make the opponent grab the rope instead to make themselves look like less of an idiot.

I know the thread is all wild speculation now, but just caught up on the show. Thought it was fun and most of my thoughts have already been covered. One thing I didn’t see mentioned is how stupid the Bucks curtain jerker line to Jericho was. One of your top stars would be opening your competitions C show if you hadn’t started a company, well done building up your challengers and making you company look big time. They really are dreadful as babyface characters.

I’ve watched very little death match stuff so I’m not sure how common it is, but going into a death match in a singlet and fringed boots seems ridiculous.

Any reason the Hardy/Page tag isn’t a 6 man? I thought Kassidy would have made more sense in a straight tag as Quen has been missing the last couple weeks.

I never knew about this. What was WWF getting out of letting their guys work a FMW show? Was there any more examples of WWF guys working their shows?

Owen/Bulldog again start the show. Honky is already out on commentary. Owen, who is slicking back his hair around this point, seems to have a little front quiff brushed in and I spend too long wondering if this is some sort of rib on Honky. Owen with a nice little petulant promo telling HBK, who’s gonna ‘get things off his chest’ later, not to even say a word about his brother. They face The Godwins, strange production choice as they do an inset LOD promo just as PIG get the hot tag and its not clear what happens for the finish. Replay shows the champs win when Owen breaks up a pin coming off the top with an axe handle, which looked pretty weak. Match was fine, mainly demonstrated the champs being back on the same page. LOD & Godwins brawl post-match after an accidental slopping. Stone Cold then interrupts the champs promo in the back. Austin faces Billy Gunn (who comes out with Honky). I like that Austin doesn’t seem to have added any obvious face spots but he’s clearly over as a face now. I like Billy here as the slightly goofy heel with these jerky movements when he’s bumping. Gunn turns down Honky post-match. The Commandant out for a promo which is leading to the upcoming debut of the Truth Commission. He talks about them coming to study democracy and it’s shit, gets no reaction other than some cheap heat when he refers to Americans as sissys. They’re gonna be in South Africa next week and obviously some of the roster are already there as there’s a Bret pre-tape promo from there. HBK cuts a bit of a shooty promo. He mentions the WWF doing its best numbers in 6 years with him as champ, which seems wrong, wasn’t he generally not considered a draw as champ? And he says Bret can’t separate this from real life, which crosses into business exposing shit, and contradicts another of his points about Bret only being in it for the money. Headbangers vs Barry Horowitz & Freddie Joe Floyd. Nice fire from Smothers on the hot tag before losing. Not a good sign when the squashees look more impressive than the squashers. Headbangers are early front runners for least interesting thing about these shows, they timed their powerbomb>top rope leg drop finish quite well, but otherwise just completely unremarkable. They do Shamrock vs MMA fighter, Vernon White, in a no holds barred exhibition. Some early grappling ,which was a bit different back then, but seems fairly commonplace in 2021. White with a chest kick off a break then Shamrock with a takedown and punches from the mount leads to a quick stoppage. Crowd seems a little confused by this. I’m assuming there’s a blood capsule used here as there’s lots of blood from White, which they mention but isn’t really focused on and there wasn’t any visibly stiff shots there. Think this is the beginning of the whole Shamrock snapping thing, but it doesn’t really work here. Vader (with Bearer) gets in his face afterwards. Followed by a Vader squash, a big release german is the highlight. The jobber appears to be called Frank Stilletto and seems to have Hammertime written on his trunks. Slightly unusual setup for an upcoming Austin-Bret match as they say Sid hasn’t shown up for the main event so Austin will replace him, but Austin only agrees if he gets Bret. Is this actually the end of Sid’s run? Mankind cuts a good promo, this is maybe the first shift to a slightly more realistic presentation of his character as he talks about his family. Some weird references to Taker liking fancy cars and flash hotel rooms, which seems out of place. Ends on a shitty Taker voiceover promo (presumably he’s in S. Africa), which drags. Bearer here (and with Vader) feels completely unnecessary and for me he actively detracts from both with his cartoon look. Austin and Foley basically do a no dq brawl with Hebner looking typically inept. Foley gets in a low key death bump going backwards off the side of the ramp into the railings. The match is fine but it’s clearly building to a non-finish, which happens as Bulldog/Owen come out, which brings out LOD, followed by Vader, who accidentally hits Mankind, they brawl, Austin goes after the champs and it ends with Bearer stopping his guys fighting. Stories are being moved along nicely but the theme continues of almost every big match ending in some sort of non-finish.

Yeah, Harlem Heat were the undisputed kings of this. But it’s just such a cool touch anyway, always had a realness to it that standard promos didn’t. Doesn’t Rey start a little victory speech after the Havoc match only for Eddie to jump him pretty much sending him into the camera. Isn’t that how Goldberg started the You’re Next thing as well. From a production standpoint it seems like a no brainer as well as it let’s guys show personality/advance stories/get catchphrases over without really taking up any time. Archer seems to be the main one to take advantage of it in AEW but he’s kind of a big goof, need someone to really take up the shit-talking mantle.