DylanWaco

I don't think there is a single thing Neville does better, nor did he have a higher volume of good matches in the relevant period as far as I can tell. The best you could say for him is that his best match was better than Cesaros best match.

If this didn't change any votes, nothing will. Hey, I already voted for Tanahashi

Punk at MITB

There is a shit ton of stuff I want to respond to in this thread, but I have no clue how to do so in an organized way. Thankfully I've already been accused of typing in word salads once in this tournament, so I don't feel compelled to try to be organized. For starters, here are the guys in NJPW I think are definitely better than Tanahashi in no particular order: Kushida, Ishii, Honma, Shibata, Styles, Ibushi, Nakamura, Liger, Suzuki. I suspect the most contentious name in here would be Liger. Liger I"d take over him because on the rare occasions when he's given a chance I think he delivers in a huge way (I loved the Kushida match from last years BOSJ, and I am one of the few people who thought his match with Desperado this year was really good), but I get the argument against it. I could be convinced that Okada was better last year (I thought he was better in the G1, more on that later), I would probably rate Kojima over him if pressed, and I think both Komatsu and Tanaka are better, but that is something that leads to all sort of discussions about whether or not it's fair to compare Young Lions working a template match to Tanahashi (who I also think works a template match, though I don't think that is an intrinsically bad thing, and he's far more likely to deviate from the template than the Young Lions are). I would also rate The Young Bucks over him, but that opens a similar can of worms, and I can absolutely see why people would reject that out of hand. I could see an argument for both guys in KES being better, but it feels like a real stretch to me, even if I do think DBS at his absolute best is more interesting to watch than Tanahashi (he is rarely at his best). I guess I could see an argument for Shelley being better too, but I'm not sure I'd buy it. I like reDRagon as an act more than Tanahashi as well if that counts, though I guess that depends on if you consider them roster members are not. I prefer watching Captain New Japan to Tanahashi, but it's hard to call him a better worker. I like Dorada better too, but that has little do with his work in NJPW. I would take Tanahashi over Makabe, Goto, Tenzan, Gallows, Anderson, Naito (who I think has the potential to be great, but has some unbelievably annoying flaws), Nakanishi, Nagata, Yoshi-Hashi, Yujiro, Taguchi, Omega, Tiger Mask IV, Taichi, Yano (who I actually enjoy), Iizuka, Desperado, and probably anyone else I am forgetting. One point I want to go back to on Tanahashi because I think it's worth exploring is the issue of Tanahashi in this years G1, which was widely, and pretty much universally praised. I didn't think much about it at the time, but looking back I think it's really notable that on a level playing field, in his own promotion, I don't think Tanahashi really set himself apart from the pack in that tournament. Now you could argue that NO ONE did in the sense that there was no one who was clearly better than everyone else, but at the time the discussion among New Japan hardcores, novices and inbetweens was not focused on the performances of Tanahashi. Really the only Tanahashi match I remember getting a huge buzz from the tournament was the Shibata match (which was a great match, but a lot of the buzz had to do with comments Tanahashi had made about Shibata in his book). Oddly enough I was reasonably high on Tanahashi's performances in the tourney (I remember rating his match with Gallows higher than just about anyone did), but I had him well down the depth chart of guys in the tournament, and in now way was I out of the norm. I think it would be absolutely fair to say that Styles, Honma, Okada, Ishii, Shibata, Suzuki and even Nakamura (who I don't think had a lights out tournament necessarily) were all thought of as having had better G1's than Tanahashi, or at very least those were the guys with the biggest buzz coming out of it. Going further I think it would be fair to say that you could add Naito, and possibly even Goto, Tenzan (who performed at a much higher level than most expected) and Nagata to the list of guys who's work and performances had a bigger buzz coming out of the G1 than Tanahashi. None of this is to say that Tanahashi had a lesser tournament than all of those people, but I think he certainly got lost in the pack, and I really don't think that's me projecting my own biases. I'm not saying this "proves" anything, I just think it's an interesting thing to think about and discuss, and I'd be interested to hear if people think my perceptions are on or off there. With Cena the guys who I think who are clearly better in the WWE are: Cesaro, Harper, Bryan (I mean right this second, don't think I'd rate him above Cena for the voting period), Ambrose, Sheamus, Zayn and Rusev I could see arguments for Brock, Rollins, The Usos (certainly as a unit it's debatable at least), and...er...no one else. I mean I guess I could see an argument for Dolph in the sense that if someone made the argument I would understand their perspective on wrestling (and I suppose you could say the same thing about Tyson Kidd), but there is no chance on Earth I could be persuaded that either guy is better than Cena. I don't think guys like Balor or Neville are even in the same universe as Cena (for the record I prefer Neville to Balor if anyone cares), I don't see any reason at all to think Bray or Orton are better, and I don't think HHH is even close (and I liked every HHH match last year, and absolutely disagree with the notion that Bryan carried him). On the subject of Cena and burying guys, I think the difference between him and HHH is twofold. 1. I think when Cena ends up "burying" guys it's because he isn't vocal enough to stand up for guys who need the help, rather than a case of actively working to sabotage others. For the record I am not saying this to excuse Cena, because I think as the top guy there are times where he absolutely should have pushed for certain things. I know for an absolute fact of one famous case where he lobbied hard to drop a match to someone, and it was the right move, but the booking after fucked things royally. But I also think there are other guys he really could have used his clout to put over, or get better positions for them and he hasn't. 2. I think in the ring Cena is much more likely to do shit that is selfless, and ends with him clearly and definitively losing something (or evens things out when it's not necessary) than Trip ever was. You could argue that more recent HHH has been good in this regard (I think there is an interesting discussion to be had there, but this isn't really the thread for it), but I can't recall any prime, active performer period, when HHH was near or was a top guy, when he put over an upstart new star like Daniel Bryan, clean in the middle, on a new kill shot finish, without ever really getting his win and/or heat back. He absolutely never did anything like what Cena did with Brock, nor can I really recall him in a scenario that would be comparable to the Punk MITB match (here you could say "well what the fuck would be comparable to that?" and you'd probably be right, but it's worth noting that HHH beat Punk not long after that, hurting his momentum). Anyway I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the Tanahashi v. Cena stuff per se, but it was a word salad, I felt like spewing after following the interesting turns this thread has taken.

I have zero problem with the argument that Cena's worst trait as a worker is his strikes. But I also think it is pretty obvious that there is a difference between NJPW and WWE when it comes to the expectations and aesthetics of strike based offense. Now if you want to argue that the strikecentric qualities of NJPW are a negative aspect of the style I wouldn't necessarily disagree. I'm not even opposed to the theoretical argument that Tanahashi's lack of quality strikes should matter as much or as little as Cena's. But when watching NJPW Tanahashi's weaknesses in that regard stand out much more than Cena's do in the WWE. At least to me.

Bryan got over to the degree he did (he was already more over than most of the roster) because he lifted Mark Briscoes look and hot tag formula and applied it to WWE matches with his own spin. It was something that felt unique on WWE television, and was helped along dramatically by the fact that he was paired off against The Shield for a big chunk of the period in question. Kudos to Bryan for making that situation work. Having said that, and even acknowledging that his segments with Kane were very entertaining, I think the guy is actually pretty bad as a promo or character once you inject any sort of seriousness into an angle. He doesn't have the facial expressions for it, the voice for it, or the demeanor. That's not to say serious angles with Bryan can't get over, or that he can never do something along those lines that works, but rather that it is the exception to the standard Bryan rule of smiling during 90% of the segments he's in, or awkwardly delivering lines that are supposed to make him sound "intense." A lot of people wanted (still want?) to believe that Bryan could have and should have been the next Austin/Rock type star based on the chants and pops. I'm not saying that there is no way it could have happened (I don't think it will now), but I think personality wise and in terms of what he brings to the table he is more analogous to Foley than he was to either of those guys. And that is not a bad thing. And that's still not an excuse for the way he's been booked recently. This is an interesting discussion that can go a lot of ways, but one thing I will say is that even if you look at Bryan as a liability in the sense that the fans won't let anyone other than him be the real top guy at the moment (and I have seen this argument made), I think you can still argue that he has more worth to the company than Brock. Of course the problem with both guys has more to do with booking than anything, but if you are looking at it purely from a "value to the company" perspective, it's hard to argue that the guy with arguably the best contract in company history, who really hasn't improved business at all, is worth it.

Name names!

They don't look like they would hurt anyone. As in not even a small child. And this in a promotion where guys no sell backdrop drivers, and build huge portions of matches around strike exchanges - Tanahashi included. I actually think it is pretty self-evident that Tanahashi's strikes are bad. I would grant that there are times where he will lay it in more and it is always noticeable when he does because they are so bad normally it's hard to miss unless you are just being obtuse. If you want a particular example that always stands out to me, his strikes in the Ishii G1 match in 2013 were so bad, unimpactful, and lazy looking that they kept me from being able to enjoy much of it. Which brings me back to my question: who throws better worked strikes? All the guys cited as having good strikes are guys who lay it in-that is, hit the other guy for real. Is it simply not possible to have good-looking worked strikes? This is bullshit and you know it. Plenty of people have pointed to his ability to structure a match, which is arguably the most important quality a wrestler can have. By contrast, Cena has everything laid out for him by his opponent and agents, so all he has to do is execute. And half the time, he can't even do that properly. I think I've been consistent in not particularly caring if a guy mails it in on small shows. If you're great when you want to be, you're great. Also, I just want to say that calling the Bray, Brock, and Rusev matches classics strikes me as insane. I don't mean that it's an opinion I vehemently disagree with. I mean that if you believe that, you literally suffer from mental illness and need to be committed before you eat someone's face. On the subject of good looking strikes you don't have to lay it in, but you do have to work snug enough where the strike in question looks like it has some impact. Tanahashi rarely does this. To take one example Nikki Bella throws a mean looking forearm. I have no clue if she is concussing people every time out, but I find that to be highly unlikely. My guess is she works snug, but doesn't brutalize people. Tanahashi forearm strikes are not even close to the level of Nikki Bella. On your second point, it's absolutely not bullshit, it's a fact, as you well know. I have asked some of the biggest Tanahashi fans on the net in polite and direct manners what is they like about him, and more often than not the response is "he has great matches," followed by them calling me an asshole, a dick, et. for daring to even ask the question. The structure argument is something that I have seen tossed around in the last year or so, and was something I first saw mentioned by people who weren't particularly high on Tanahashi, but were trying to point to his positives. On the last point I assume it was directed at Brian and not me. Having said that, my experience is that a substantial portion of the Tanahashi fan boy club is populated by people who have seen no more than a handful of his matches, and parrot the opinions of others so that they don't feel out of touch. Before you cry that I'm defaming you, I would note that I'm not referring to you directly, but rather the sort of people I've had conversations with who tell me all about their favorite Tanahashi matches, without telling me a single thing that happened in the match, or being able to name a single opponent of note beyond Okada and maybe Nakamura. Or the people who claim he is the level of star that Hashimoto and Choshu were because hey, "I read the Observer." Or the guys who voted "Takahashi" for the Hall of Fame because "he's sold out the Tokyo Dome several times." What's the point of this? The point is that I may not agree that all or any of those Cena matches are classics, but when it comes to being frauds, liars, phonies, the perpetually ignorant, and delusional psychotics - or to put it your way those who "need to be committed before" they "eat someone's face" - I'm not sure the hardcore Tanahashi apologists should be pointing fingers at the hardcore Cena apologists. At the end of the day I'd rather discuss the matches and the workers on their merits. And I think there is something to be said for the argument that Tanahashi (and Cena) may be better than the sum of his parts. But if this is about "picking sides" I'll cast my lot with the Cena fans 1,000 out of 1,000 times.

Thing is, I won't vote without giving Tanahashi a fair shake, but it's hard to imagine he's going to get my vote, because, as I think I've articulated, I think Cena should win this whole damn tournament. You are far more bullish on Cena than I am, but Cena does have some great performances in the period. And while the Shibata mauling of Tanahashi in the G1 was cited as a great example of a top guy taking it on the chin to help put over another guy, that match has absolutely nothing on Cena allowing himself to be squashed by Brock for the title. I mean...I can't see any argument for Cena winning the whole thing to be honest, but most of my top picks have no chance in hell, so who knows who I will be voting for down the stretch of this.

I actually thought the Mania match with Bray was good, but the wrong guy won and that means it left most people with a terrible taste in their mouths. One thing I will say is that I think it is perfectly fair to rip Cena for that Bray feud, as he should have insisted Bray go over at Mania, or at least win the feud definitively (and if you don't think Cena has that kind of clout you are nuts). I'm not even a Bray fan, but they had something there, and the way that feud went hurt him badly, to the point that he was worse off coming off a feud with the companies top star than he was coming in. That said if we are going to rip Cena for that feud, and for not hitting as many home runs as he did in his best years, Tanahashi should be held to the same standard. In other words, the fact that Tanahashi coasts or goes on cruise control on almost every non-major show he's on should be criticized (Cena couldn't even do this if he wanted to given the nature of WWE television) at minimum. I also think it's interesting that I don't know of a single person who watched the G1 who thought Tanahashi was one of the top tier performers in that tournament, which isn't in and of itself an indictment of him, but it suggests that on a level playing field he doesn't stand out from his NJPW peers very much.

Brian, I am not a Tanahashi fan, but I would recommend you watch the Shibata match from the G1 and the rematch from later i the year (which I didn't particularly care for, but Meltzer and hardcore Tanahashi fans seem to have loved it), last years Invasion Attack match v. Nakamura, the Okada match from WK9 (another one I think has been wildly overrated in some quarters, but it was good), and the match with Styles from New Beginning (which I thought was actually underrated and one of the better Tanahashi performances I've ever seen). Even though vote rigging means I voted for him, I don't think he was as good as Cena last year, but he had some stuff worth watching and commenting on.

Tanahashi was the top star of NJPW during the promotions historic lowpoint in terms of drawing. The turnaround started right around the time Okada started to be pushed as a top guy and rival to Tanahashi. It's also worth noting that the "turnaround" itself has been heavily exaggerated in some quarters. In no way am I saying that Tanahashi deserves no credit for his role in the current business success of NJPW. I'm not even saying he's NOT the top guy in the promotion. But the narrative of Tanahashi as the savior of NJPW that you see some places is based on a very selective reading of his history as a draw, and the timeline of when things turned around. Tanahashi needed a rival that connected with the audience. He got that in Okada, right around the same time that Nakamura turned into the most charismatic worker on Earth, the company opened up a massively successful revenue stream with IPPV, and the Gedo/Jado booking team started to really deliver. Of course none of this really has to do with my point which was about my view of him as a working ace, but yeah.

I voted for Bryan because as much as I like Brock as a talent, I don't think he's worth 5 millions dollars, and if he wasn't around maybe Rusev would be getting his push. There are other reasons too, but that's what I keep coming back to

I voted for Kidd, even though I think Rollins had the better in ring year, because A. I thought the Kidd/Natalya stuff at NXT was better than anything similar that Rollins has done and B. Up until very recently I would literally change the channel or fast forward through any segment where Seth Rollins was speaking. I do admit he has gotten somewhat better recently in that regard, but for months I couldn't stomach the idea of his 2000-era HHH tribute act clogging up fifteen to twenty minutes of every show. Just horrendous stuff, and against a guy with a lot of stuff I enjoyed in the voting period that sinks him.

I really want to like Balor, because I hear he's a nice guy, and I do think he works hard..but he's not very good. On top of that there are some characters that you just don't get even when others do. Balor is one of them for me. I find him to be utterly ridiculous, and I think his much vaunted entrances are laugh out loud funny which isn't what he's going for. I'm willing to concede that I'm in the minority when it comes to him, but I'm also willing to admit that he's likely to have "change the channel" heat with me when he hits the main roster unless some dramatic changes are made. I love Ryback. Very good promo, really underrated hoss worker, Rybaxel tag team was a waste of him, but he was really good in it, et. I actually think Ryback has had some really good performances in the ring this year, including a hot tag at Fast Lane that was better tan any Balor/Itami hot tag spot, and a match with Rusev that is better than any Balor match I've ever seen.

They don't look like they would hurt anyone. As in not even a small child. And this in a promotion where guys no sell backdrop drivers, and build huge portions of matches around strike exchanges - Tanahashi included. I actually think it is pretty self-evident that Tanahashi's strikes are bad. I would grant that there are times where he will lay it in more and it is always noticeable when he does because they are so bad normally it's hard to miss unless you are just being obtuse. If you want a particular example that always stands out to me, his strikes in the Ishii G1 match in 2013 were so bad, unimpactful, and lazy looking that they kept me from being able to enjoy much of it. The thing about most champions of Tanahashi I've encountered is that they can never tell you what they like about him. Ever. They are very quick to dismiss arguments others have about why they don't like Tanahashi or think he's overrated, but I don't know if I have ever once see someone layout a case for why they think he is a great professional wrestler that didn't consist of "he has great matches." And to be fair it may be that he is a guy who is way better than the sum of his parts. But at much as the Tanahashi supporters get frustrated by guys like me, that is why I get frustrated by guys like them. Here are what I would point to as his positives: Charisma/connection to the crowd which makes his matches feel important Good, at times very good bumper Is willing to take punishment, eat offense, and make people well below him in the pecking order look good and even get over on him in definitive ways. Many of the negatives I see in him have already been mentioned, but I would add that I find it ridiculous how easy people are on him for doing little to nothing so often on the C-Shows. For all the shit you can say about Cena, I have been to many house shows where he's worked, and I have never seen him phone it in the way Tanahashi does on the regular on non-big time NJPW shows. And if Cena did do that he would be absolutely eviscerated for it, just as Michaels and Bret were years ago by hardcore fans who accused them of being lazy on house shows.

I think Tanahashi is a really poor ace. He is charismatic (though I don't think that charisma translates nearly as well outside of Japan FWIW), but he doesn't ever come across as "the man" to me. Compare him to someone like Harashima who is a brilliant ace, or even Nakamura in his own promotion, and I think he's clearly several pegs below in that regard.

I voted for Cena and my vote counted for Tanahashi. That's..odd.

Is today the day I get to vote against Tanahashi ?

Yeah this is another horrendous draw. I would vote for Busick over every single WWE contracted employee if I was judging on work alone. Just a great worker who's 4/27 match with Gulak was one of the best matches of year, had a tremendous match with Zack Sabre Jr. from Evolve, had an out of this World series with Mike Bailey, had an excellent series with Thatcher, et. Has one of the best finishes in wrestling, a cool look, and bridges the gap really well between the more "go-go-go" spot style of modern indie wrestling and the WOS-inspired, groundwork/big strike heavy, style that him, Gulak and Thatcher really started to put on the map last year. He deserves better than this. But Cavernario was the best wrestler in the World last year. Here who have a kid who is just barely in his twenties, had been working a few times on t.v. for the previous several years to the acclaim of me, Phil Schneider, Bihari, and about four other poeple and he gets his big shot in the En Busca de un Idolo tournament. And honestly I don't think any of us thought he would hit the kind of home run he did there. I was REALLY high on this guy, and I never would have guessed he would be the best worker in the tournament (yes better than Hechicero, though I thought Hechicero was the better worker in the final), then go on to take a mask, Cometa's hair in a great match on the biggest show of the year, get a main event title shot against Titan in another great, and be the all star of a bunch of trios, lightning matches, and wild sprints for the totality of 2014. He has the best highspot in wrestling and one of the best finishes. I don't think there is any question that he's one of the most exciting, and energetic workers to emerge in recent years, but I don't think he gets enough credit for what he is capable of doing in trios (see the 5/23 and 12/30 trios performances from last year which might be my 1 and 2 trios matches of the entire year and he was arguably the best guy in both), ciberneticos, and longer matches like the title and stakes matches mentioned above. By all means watch him have crazy, balls to the wall, sprints with guys like X-Treme Tiger, Dragon Lee and Cachorro, but that's not all this guy is capable of. He's an awesome worker, who is way too good to be that young, with a fun gimmick that makes him stand out from the pack. I love Busick, my guess is he wins this and it's hard to be mad about a guy I"m as high on as him going to the second round. But I don't think I'd vote for anyone over Cavernario.

I actually think Allmark is every bit as good as Dolph, maybe better, but I don't think he had the matches last year to show it and it's hard for me to vote against a guy who the crowd loves as much as Dolph in the first round.

Voted for Steen on the strength of the Mike Bailey match from C*4, and his work so far in NXT which I consider to be the best stuff he's ever done in many ways.

I've got nothing against Grado really, but I'm not sure I'd vote him over the fortieth best guy in CMLL. And Virus is at worst the fourth or fifth best guy in CMLL, and maybe the BEST guy in CMLL. So...sorry Grado

Goto isn't any good. Rush is great.

I actually think last year was Shibata's best year in ages. And I think he has a legit badass aura to him that is underutilized by NJPW. He was really, really good at his best last year, But he's not Honma. Honma was either the best or second best guy in the G1 last year as a last second addition who NEVER won. He SHOULD have beaten Shibata in that tourney (still annoyed by that), but even still this is a guy that is so good at what he does he makes you believe even though you know he's not likely to succeed. There are minor things he does that annoy, but most of those things are more theoretical annoyances than anything else. People will mention the Ibushi, Ishii, Shibata matches, but everyone should watch his carry job of Bad Luck Fale from the G1 to see how amazing this guy can be.