Go2Sleep
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Posts posted by Go2Sleep
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Every WCW show from the second half of 96 was good at worst. I think Havoc might have been the least of them, but still good like I said. I remember Luger and Arn having a surprisingly great match, and there's a FoF/Horsemen tag that isn't particularly memorable but there is one spot where Barbarian throws Benoit like 500 feet and it's insane.
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I think Disco only works for that answer if you put a lot of weight on maintaining a silly gimmick. As far as guys who could go in the ring, make anyone look better, and/or were more over, there's Malenko, Regal, and Christian just off the top of my head. They're so far ahead of Disco in those categories, I don't think Disco's ability to work with bad gimmicks keeps him in the discussion.
Does Arn count as a midcarder?
I actually wanna say yes, although his association with Flair did get him near a lot of main event angles, especially during Wargames season.
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That list of Trish's contemporaries really highlights how impressive it was for her to succeed as a wrestler. I don't think anyone's saying her in-ring resume GOAT material, you just have to look at it in context. Someone like Paige who is probably the 4th or 5th best woman in WWE today already has a better body of work than Trish, but she isn't held in high regard because it doesn't stand out relative to her peers. If Trish came up through the performance center and NXT, she'd be at the front of the pack right now. Paige in the era of bikini contests and bra and panty matches with minimally-trained models? Unlikely to leave a better legacy than Molly Holly.
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They were above Disco on the totem pole, sure, but 4 of those 5 never even sniffed the world title or even a DDP/Savage level feud that could main event a throwaway ppv during their tenure. They were featured as midcarders because they were some of the better performers maybe?
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Disco's gimmick is only part of it to me. He was never, ever going past a certain point on the card. Guys like Dean/Eddie/Benoit/Jericho/Rey were featured performers for most of their runs in WCW. Disco was never on that level, which is why I describe him as a pure midcarder. A guy brought in specifically and only for the midcard, who was perfect in his role the entire time, but without the possibility of getting out of that spot.
I'd say none of those guys had a shot to get out of their spot in WCW either, unless you wanna count Benoit getting the title after he had committed to WWE. I'll say Disco did the most with what he had, but since what he had wasn't much, there are quite a few people who were better in the role at the time and since.
Matt Hardy in WWE is another perfect midcarder, especially from 2005-07.
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I think Disco only works for that answer if you put a lot of weight on maintaining a silly gimmick. As far as guys who could go in the ring, make anyone look better, and/or were more over, there's Malenko, Regal, and Christian just off the top of my head. They're so far ahead of Disco in those categories, I don't think Disco's ability to work with bad gimmicks keeps him in the discussion.
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1. I'm pretty confident nobody is gonna be the next Trish Stratus in this day and age. PG era pretty severely hinders any woman from getting over just by overt sexualization (this is not a bad thing mind you) and audiences today want some wrestling ability right out of the gate. Eva Marie would've been a star in the early 2000s a la Torrie Wilson and Stacy Kiebler. Likewise, Wilson and Kiebler would be dead in the water today. It took Trish a good 3-4 years to get solid in the ring, but she could rely on T&A matches and angles (and I ain't talking about Andrew Martin and Matt Bloom) to stay over in the mean time, then it looked even better when she became a good wrestler when that was the prevailing style she was brought up in. That just isn't a path that's available to women wrestlers today in WWE.
2. I know we all love NXT, but what is with these crazy reaches for "pro comps" with the current talent? First I see someone say Jason Jordan is the next Rock, and now Alexa is the next Trish? I think Tyler Breeze was 92 Shawn at one point too, and well, I digress... Trish Stratus is perhaps the most inspirational woman in WWE history. Her work ethic in a situation where it wasn't expected and the fact that she ended up having a decent in-ring legacy despite having little if any talent or inspired writing to work with until her last couple of years is no small feat. Alexa may well equal or surpass Trish in terms of ring work when it's all said and done (and honestly given Alexa's environment, it would be damning if she didn't), but I will say with great confidence, she will never be an iconic figure on the level of Trish. There was a lot more to Trish than being short and blonde.
As far as "tag team managers that are primarily sex appeal at first but have some discernible athleticism that indicates potential talent despite their current green-ness" go, let's see if she can become the next Melina before we even think about drawing comparisons to Trish.
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I dunno, that's just how they update things. They don't update in order. 1998 Nitro is almost complete in the last day. I'd expect it to be done in the next day or two at the pace they're going. 1999 has double what it had two days ago. My bigger question is why do they wait so long to do any updates, and then not promote them when they do.
In fairness, I don't think advertising 1999 Nitros is the best way to drive up network subs.
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What could be more hyperbolic than calling somebody the next Rock, probably the most financially successful wrestler ever?
Not that Jordan doesn't look like he could be good, but maybe let's compare him to other high-ceiling singles prospects who get their first break in a tag team like Jeff Hardy and Edge first. Or Benjamin and Morrison on the spectrum of guys that didn't pan out.
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Sami and Joe complaining to the ref/Regal was fantastic.
"It was a horrible sharpshooter!"
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X-Factor was good. The hate they got made no sense.
I don't know about good, but X-Pac/Albert was at least a sensible pairing as a grocery-store-brand knockoff Shawn/Diesel which automatically gives them more reason to exist than the LON. Justin Credible is eternally terrible, though, and his presence combined with this time period being peak X-Pac hate and having theme music by Uncle Kracker probably explains why they weren't remembered fondly.
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While I'm thinking about it, does anyone else agree with me that the LON is one of the worst stables in recent memory, if not ever? The individual pieces are fine, but they've established no reasons for them to band together, they don't complement each other at all, physically and wrestling-wise they're all very redundant, and not a single combination of the four has any chemistry whatsoever. The one guy (Barrett) who actually brings something unique to the table (promo skills) isn't even allowed to do that. It's about as lazy and low-effort a stable you can make. You have 4 midcard foreign heels who no one cares about, how is putting them together going to generate any value?
Rusev is the only one who appears to be putting any effort into anything, and he would be better off as his own act (in fact, I think he's dying for a face turn). Del Rio is best as a lone-wolf midcard heel. Sheamus/Barrett would've been a solid tag team combo, but Barrett getting hurt messed that up. Barrett shouldn't be on tv if he can't wrestle or he's not going to transition to announcer. Sheamus could still be the Kane replacement for the Authority I guess. All these guys being together makes each individual look worse instead of better, which is the exact opposite of what a stable is supposed to accomplish.
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Kofi should've won MITB last year. Imagine how much better the last couple of months could've been if New Day was in the LON's spot (and the LON never existed).
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* Backstage segment with Sasha Banks apparently splitting from Tamina Snuka and Naomi, saying she's done with them
Turns out the last 6 months where she hadn't made it was just a dream, now there's nothing dragging her down.
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Between the Rock and HHH promos, I felt like it was 2003 again. The Rock's promo was pretty good even if it was super long, and the New Day definitely felt like they belonged with him on the mic. I actually didn't mind HHH's promo either. Unlike Vince and Steph, I feel like HHH actually has some self-awareness and knows how to play his character in 2016.
I definitely didn't dig the AJ/Jericho match. Reminded me of Cesaro/RVD from a couple years ago where one guy was clearly moving at half speed so the other guy could pretend he could still do a back and forth sprint 10+ years past his prime.
I like the way the women's title feud is shaping up. You can hear the reactions getting a little bit better each week and they're all getting more comfortable in their roles.
I feel kinda bad for Paige coming in a couple years ago to change the face of women's wrestling, now she's slumming it the non-canon Total Divas tags.
The ME choice for Fast Lane is interesting. It sounds decent on paper, even if "Wyatts attack Lesnar, Roman wins" is about as predictable as HHH at #30.
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I think the MITB match is more of a replacement for KOTR in the sense that it's basically the company telling you "this midcarder is moving up."
I do agree Survivor Series' stock has plummeted in the last 10 years, and it's only a Big 4 by reputation at this point. Sting debut notwithstanding, the last time it felt important was during the hard brand split with the Raw vs. SD tags.
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Outside of the big 4 WWE shows, which filler ppv has consistently produced the best matches over the years?
I'm leaning towards No Way Out, which due to its proximity to Mania, tended to get the best efforts from everyone involved and inspired storylines. There were at least 3 legitimate MOTDCs between the HHH/Austin 3 stages of hell, Angle/Taker, and Eddie/Lesnar. They pretty much all have at least one MOTYC and every show from 98-09 was solid at worst. The only bad one was when they brought the name back for the June 2012 show that was headlined by a Cena/Show cage match with Big Johnny's career on the line.
ONS/Extreme Rules (I lump these two together because they're functionally the same thing with mostly/all hardcore matches) is a sleeper candidate. They usually run into something good on each show and have a couple MOTDCs to show (The 6-person intergender tag in 06, and Cena/Lesnar in 2012).
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Best part of the Rumble was when HHH instantly Pedigreed Dolph. Haha. Buried him legit like a man.
This was definitely hilarious. Dolph looked like a green-spirit going after someone in special.
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My new year's resolution is to watch main roster WWE with a different perspective. I no longer expect, or even want, greatness. I just want the shows to not be abysmal. In that regard, the Rumble was satisfactory.
Ambrose/Owens was a decent little hardcore match. Not great, as it was still the bland, homogeneous, indistinguishable formula we've grown accustomed to the last year and a half, but it was about as good as it was going to be in those constraints.
The tag title match was fine. Wouldn't mind seeing New Day feud with Swagger/Henry. Would certainly be better than the Usos for the 100th time.
Kalisto/ADR was botch city and easily the worst match they've had together and the worst match on the show. Kalisto losing the belt back looks very pointless in retrospect, as expected.
The women's match was pretty good. I liked the play on the old trope with Charlotte using the helpless male as a shield. The finish was silly, but the post match made up for it. As much as I like Becky and was happy to see her over here, I didn't mind the stomp. It's Sasha's time and if she can keep an edge as a face, she's money in the bank. This is one WM feud that actually looks like it's headed in the right direction.
The Rumble itself was fine, certainly a step up from the last two years. HHH winning is whatever, we all knew it was coming and once Roman woke up from his nap at #29, they might as well have put "HHH is #30 you dipshits" on the tron for the next minute. On the plus side, we got the equally predictable AJ debut and Zayn/Owens interactions which are things people actually wanted. Roman continued to look like a loser and Brock was pretty wasted in this all things considered.
Not really sure about Mania. HHH/Roman is going to be boring and the crowd will definitely be behind HHH. I'm ok with Brock/Bray if Fast Lane has Brock vs. the other Wyatts in a gauntlet match with the bulk of it being Harper. Their match at Mania could go either way quality wise, and I guess if they wanted to try to re-build Bray so they can waste him later, this is their last chance. There are some clear potential positives, though, with Zayn/Owens and Charlotte/Sasha.
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If WWE does anything to tease Bryan and not deliver this year, we'll know their new plan for the Rumble is to make how much the crowd shits on the match the main draw.
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All three guys in the three way next week won without using their finisher. Assuming that was intentional, it was a great, subtle way to distinguish those guys.
Joe's won most of his matches with the rear naked choke thus far (plus he used it to KO Finn 3 weeks in a row), so I'd say it's his primary, but otherwise I agree completely. He didn't use the muscle buster setup, and the other two just won with signature spots. I think Sami has a couple subs with the koji clutch, but Corbin's deep six was just a "big match two count" move.
I thought Corbin/Swann was the best match of the three. Rich Swann made the most of his first appearance with some over-the-top bumping and got a couple good shots on Corbin that made him look competent, but didn't make Baron look weak. Pretty much an ideal enhancement match when you plan to use the jobber in a bigger role later.
Not sure how I feel about the name "American Alpha," but at least it doesn't have the word Team in front of it. And the promo to set it up was good too.
That Vaudevillains promo was strange. Guess they're dropping the gimmick and/or turning heel? Not that there's a lot left for them to do at this point.
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So they just announced a 4-way Tag Team Match for the Royal Rumble Kick-Off Show with the winning team being added to the Royal Rumble match:
The Dudley Boys vs. The Ascension vs. Swagger & Henry vs. Darren Young & Damien Sandow
I'd say the Dudleys are the favorites to win that with Henry & Swagger maybe having an outside chance.
Is it too much for that match to end in a no-contest?
You're looking at it all wrong. 6 of those guys won't be in the Rumble. Glass is 3/4 full, man.
(I actually think Henry should be in there)
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The problem with a "Roman vanquishing the Authority" angle is that no one will believe it til it happens. Fucking Sting showed up in the surprise moment of the decade and had the blessing of Vince McMahon himself to ostensibly get rid of the Authority forever and they were back in power a month later. That ship has sailed.
If "they" want HHH (and I assume it's him, not Steph or Kane that they care about) on tv every week, they should've just eased him back in as a true neutral authority figure after the Sting feud. He could come out and do promos and announce matches and shit, but still emphasize that it's the *superstars* who are settling things for themselves.
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I really hope HHH is #2, and the story with him and Roman is resolved about halfway through with both of them getting eliminated somehow. Then the finishing run can be Brock vs. The World with some fresh, inspiring challengers.
That'll be fun to fantasize about for a few days.
WWE NETWORK GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD
in WWE PROGRAMMING
Posted
Man, that's more height than I've seen on some cage bumps. Plus the reactions from Debra, Woman, and Mark Curtis... Then Meng's just in the corner like "yep."
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