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(taps microphone) As best I know, I'm one of four women and only Black woman on the board. By all means correct me if I'm wrong on that. The point being as a super minority on DVDVR, I have different perspectives on wrestling and the world at large. Because being both Black and a woman, my identity intersects a plane entirely different from most here. I come on the board, read posts by the majority White men here, and it's obvious many of you don't have a clue about what any woman thinks, let alone a Black woman or woman of color. So I try to provide insight, to show a prism that someone who is the polar opposite for most here looks through. To provide a voice for a group woefully under-represented in wrestling (as that's the original point of DVDVR). I don't expect to be applauded for doing that. But I don't appreciate the online psychoanalysis of how I hate White men and I'm obsessed with this wrestler/that promotion/seeing problems that don't really exist. Some were apparently shocked that I would disagree with you or question your position. Because you're so entrenched in your often White, hetero, cis male world where you're always in control, even the idea of someone outside that realm challenging you was an affront. It's not a problem exclusive to DVDVR. It's all over wrestling. A woman of any color gets questioned. But as soon as many learn a Black woman is giving an opinion, out come the passive-aggressive remarks and not-so-subtle misogynoir. Dealing with either racism or sexism alone is bad. But fighting both is what I have to do every day of my life. And I like to think that I could come here as a place away from all the world's pressure. But who we are doesn't change just because we're shooting the breeze over a comedy skit on RAW. We carry who we are wherever we go. Good and bad. And the fight to have my existence count for something rolls on, even over the most mundane things. All this to say is I read what was being said in the Wrestling Abuse thread. And I wish I was angry or even disappointed. But I've seen it too many times. You're so fixated on the possible 2% of women who MAY lie about sexual abuse. You're not thinking that for every story being told this weekend, there are 4-5 we will never hear. Because the system--designed by White men--doesn't allow for victim survivors to be heard. To receive justice. Everyone asks why women don't report this to the police. We have someone in this very thread doing the 'well actually' routine for Matt Riddle. THAT'S WHY. Riddle doesn't need any of us providing a defense for him. If that's happening on a message board where nothing is at stake, imagine trying to convince someone in power to empathize. I can almost guarantee that in a year, this movement will be archived with women who dared to speak up mysteriously not getting booked, while many of the accused will do business as usual. Because the majority White patriarchy will keep the wheels spinning. And women will still barely be spokes on said wheel. Wrestling is still a good ol' boys' club with White men continuing to wield the most power. Be it in the actual business or on a message board. I can't help but think a lot of the attitudes surrounding the Speaking Out movement connects to Black Lives Matter. That only by walking out in front of your car, blocking roads, and tearing down statues that shouldn't have been put up in the first place are you willing to listen. Even then, it's conditional. You'll return to ignore after these fine messages of how proud you are of those who speak the truth. But you won't be back after the commercial. What am I as a woman, specifically a Black woman, supposed to do? Even when I try to explain my position calmly, it's met with patronizing insincerity. If I yell, I'm then the angry Black woman you'll claim frightens you when I hold zero power in any situation outside of what I create for myself. And I didn't create this vicious cycle of abuse and questioning said abuse. And why do so many of you insist of keeping together the destructive system that allows it? Because ultimately, it serves you pretty well. All because of your biological gender and skin color. It's exhausting. And I'm tired of telling my story. It's not even a good story, anyway.

I respect the board and respect jaedmc and I've been here off and on a long-time. I certainly understand giving people a timeout if they're sniping back and forth or derailing threads with personal attacks but reading this post makes me think that this is more a warning to not post opinions that others may disagree with or be upset by or to be wary about pushing back from general consensus. In the trash thread, I certainly posted a few things that I thought were a little more nuanced than the "fuck [insert] accused" posts which to me have absolutely no value. I taught college English. I teach high school English. I'm a big believer in MORE dialogue, more debate and having uncomfortable conversations in a fair, logical way. Again, not criticizing the decision to close or for anyone to take a beat but I hope moving forward this isn't a trend where a post "affecting others" is going to stifle dissent. People also have the ability to mute and not read people they find annoying, dumb or offensive, as well. - Hagan

NO. Stop with the unneeded defense. Rape is evil. Rape culture is evil. You wouldn't shrug this off if someone said that against a woman you cared about. STOP ENABLING THIS GARBAGE. Calling out such behavior isn't cancel culture. Cancel culture is a fake social construct, it doesn't actually exist or happen. Holding people accountable isn't cancelling them. There was a thousand ways for Guevara to express how he found Sasha attractive. Why did he go to wanting to rape her? Why would anyone consider that normal? Why are you doing that? STOP IT!!!

Would be an incredible car crash spectacle to see a broken down, near immobile old man with extreme right wing political views go up against [squints at notes] Necro Butcher

Posting because it's newsworthy: Sasha has spoken with Sammy and he has apologized. He's made his own very contrite statement on his Twitter.

This is an important point. Imagine if this was your sister/daughter/wife being spoken about. I'm well aware that brains are still forming until you're 25ish and he wasn't "famous" then, but he's going to have to do some serious sincere apologising, some sensitivity training and perhaps a donation of his wages (matched by AEW) towards an appropriate charity may be an idea too. If I was AEW/WWE etc I'd get everyone on the roster to do some serious sensitivity training as well as social media / interview training.

Totally reasonable. I 100% agree that everyone needs to take the feelings of others into their posts, especially when it comes to this particular subject matter. With that said, this is the least toxic place I know to discuss these matters and going elsewhere is not really an option I'm willing to explore. Any way, I can wait a day.

I get that, and I also get why you locked the other conversations, but what do you expect to be the topic of conversation on a wrestling board? Seriously, this is all awful, but we're all here because we love wrestling. It's unrealistic for anyone to think that we're not going to want to discuss what feels like a fundamental shift in the industry.

Fuck it. I win. ***SPACE FLYING TIGER DROP***

I'd think he was some dumb, snot-nosed punk kid and I'd probably want to punch him. I'd want to teach him a lesson and make him apologize. But should his life be ruined over this? I disagree. EDIT:

It isn't hard for me to remember the people I hung out with when I was 21. Misogynist bro language was one of the pillars of the pecking order. It was tired, reductive, willfully ignorant and morally repugnant then just as it is now. But I know exactly what kind of world enables language like that, and I know exactly how long into a person's life that kind of garbage conditioning can linger despite knowing better. So I do partially empathize with Sammy's stupid fucking interview, and I would hope he's working on a proper apology as we speak. Suspend him for a month or two. Don't pay him. Let him know what an idiot he was, if any of his superiors in AEW have the moral ground to do so. But if he pays more for this than any of these perpetrators of truly evil shit (Ospreay absolutely included) then I'll be very disappointed.

There are a lot of CEOs as depraved as Vince. A lot of politicians who might run the governments that some of us work for, too. We all have to work for shitbags. That doesn't mean that we don't have a leg to stand on when we disagree with them.

Ok, this is bullshit. Do you have kids? Do you know the type of shit 10 year olds say and do, let alone 13 year olds, 16 year olds, 18, 20, and up? Do you know the types of wild shit people in their early 20s say? It may be the nearly 40 year old in me, but it's hard to not refer to people under 25 as kids. This doesn't excuse whatever shit Sammy said. It's a learning opportunity. It's a reflection opportunity. You can't say shit like "if such and such hasn't changed by now, they never would" considering there's plenty of examples of people who grow, learn, and reflect on the fucking stupid shit they said or did and ultimately change for the better to pass that down to younger generations. Along with knowing what is and isn't assault, people of many ages need to learn or be taught that casually using the word rape isn't fucking cool. I'm not about to throw in the towel on anyone in sports, or hell, people who play games on line that tell me and my friends, "lol get raped" or similar shit when they're beating us. These people can all learn that even though that shit isn't going to hurt me, it's going to hurt someone else or affect someone else. In Sammy's case, and in the case of many, many, many others, you can't give up hope that these people can't or won't learn that saying something like "I wanted to rape her" isn't an acceptable way of describing how attractive someone is, it's not an acceptable way of describing what you're going to do to another team or opponent, it's not an acceptable way to describe shit online, and regardless of how casually you or the people around you say that shit, it doesn't make it an acceptable thing to say. Maybe you're more of a cynic than me, I don't know, but to me cynicism is toxic and I can't give up hope. I can't give up hope that people won't fail to learn what they do or say is wrong and they can be better.

Even Lance Storm gave that guy a big f*** you.

Adorable.

If I recall they tried to have his finisher be the Electric Chair. Poor guy couldn’t understand it. *looks in mirror* I still got it!

You rang?

And hey, what do you know? While Twitter was demanding their pound of flesh and criticizing Sammy for his silence, he was actually apologizing and talking it out with the only person that mattered. Edit: deleted Sasha’s tweet for brevity’s sake after Vile added it to his post.

Well, fuck. There goes this thread.

The people in this thread discussing Undertaker's Documentary were doing it just fine. I actually find it quite easy to not post anything for large chunks of time about a subject, no matter how important it is to me, because I don't have anything new to add to the conversation. For the next 24 hrs the "Wrestlers Are trash Alegedly" topic is closed. After that I'll reopen the thread. But it's clear people need to take a minute and come up for air. Hopefully they can gain some perspective on how their posts affect others. It's difficult to do that when one is deeply entrenched in the constant news cycle of it. If you really want to continue talking about it as it happens live today and lord knows you're free to do so, you're welcome to use a myriad of other platforms on the internet to do just that. We're not the only game in town. If you can't find anything else to discuss HERE in that time frame then I guess there's nothing else to talk about and that's okay too. We don't always have to be talking. Sometimes it's better to think on it, even if for just a day.

Just team Kip with Havoc's son, Matt Cross, instead.

hey! I uploaded a rudimentary move I'm almost certain someone else has put up already! But I'm proud of it so lookit! https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2138219777

That's not bar-b-q, that's ruining a piece of meat by dumping a bottle of vinegar on it.

The truth. Tony Mamaluke is one of my all time favorite bump guys and he was murdering himself back then with the SICILIAN SHOOTER. I wanna say the PPVtag match against Doring/Roadkill was the one where he went throat first into a guardrail. People complain about dudes taking apron bumps.... it could be worse. Guys could be doing this still But it was them, Matthews and York, Tajiri/Whipwreck, Simon Diamond/Swinger, and they were stealing the show.

Joe Doering isn’t on anything either, but Juice is probably the most prominent example. Anyway, Sasha didn’t owe him her time or a statement. Whatever the intent, it’s not comfortable to talk to someone who said what he did, and their last interaction was him joking that she looks like a man. I hope people realize how much of a life raft she gave him by offering both; not everyone is going to be that generous, and we shouldn’t make it the standard by which aggrieved parties are judged.

Is Juice Robinson the only one of his generation of wrestlers not to be on social media to any extent? Smart, that Juice.

Dragons exist.

Does King Kong Knee Drop count? An aside, but I feel like we need to come up with a more menacing term than "splash'" Like "Phoenix Gut Explosion" or "450 Sternum Detonator"

Prepare your smelling salts and fainting couches. Are they ready? The Shake Shack cops that were "poisoned"? They barely consumed the shakes. They never got sick. They went to the hospital and were checked but never admitted. And the whole thing blew up because of an overzealous lieutenant and sergeant who wanted figurative blood. https://nypost.com/2020/06/22/how-nypd-faked-shake-shack-controversy-and-conspiracy-theory/

Apology statement from Sammy.

I can't remember which match it was exactly, but on the DVDVR Portland '80s set, there was a several-match run of guys challenging each other to loser-leaves-town matches, and Don Owen eventually breaks down and goes on an amazing old-man rant about how he hates running loser-leaves-town matches because every time someone loses, he has to try to fly a new wrestler from another part of the country to fill that spot on the show. The rant was incredibly detailed to the point where he complained about how "the last time we ran a loser-leaves-town match it cost me $600 to fly in new talent to come wrestle for all of you" and how "if every match was a loser-leaves-town match you'd be stuck here next week looking at me and the referee standing alone in an empty ring for two hours."

I did just lock two threads about the same subject for a reason and it wasn't so you'd move the conversation over here.

Let's take a break. During that time some of you should feel free to google articles on rape and rape culture so your opinions aren't total trash. Read something by someone you don't agree with.

And the last several posts are why I dared not enter said Kobe thread when these events occurred in January. That, and I was still in a fog for a few days. As a poster here, I try to stay out of shit like this just to not piss off RIPPA, Dolfan, and jae among others. I still have my good and bad days. And as someone here, I try my best to not have certain bias. There are specific things I do want to agree with, but my skin color and more importantly the lineage of my race makes it extremely complex. It's extremely difficult for me as an African-American man to bring up a lot of these people (namely African-American gentlemen) because I try so diligently to not reinforce the stereotype of the brutal, serial mongrel rapist African-American man that goes back all the way to Reconstruction (even before D.W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation). So for me, trying to keep the discussion above the belt (or above board) is my purpose. Now how it turns out is entirely different because I'm definitely not the only person here with opinions. And the reason I brought up the Gayle thing originally is because I did believe there was a hidden agenda there. However, I don't think this place is the place for those anecdotes (what might be construed as gossip or hearsay anyway) especially when I doubt many people would have the grounding or anchoring to understand what is meant by it. Moreover, on the heels of the Ari Shaffir thing months back, I knew we were heading down a pretty ugly path. On here, I just forged ahead and didn't even go near that thread for fear of getting what many might see as irrationally angry. I think a lot of shit that should roll off my back because there may be legit evidence (that even I can agree with) otherwise bothers me because I do spend too much time online reading shit. Not only do I have to deal with the White/Everybody else vs. black but the black female vs. black male gender war, black LGBTQ+ vs. Cis black male, intersectional crowd vs. black men, black immigrant (first and second gen) vs. African-Americans, BMAT (black men are trash)/y'all n***** deserve to get shot by the police crowd vs. black men, etc. It's a whole lot of shit to unpack so I do spend a lot of time here to get away from that shit. It's fucking rough otherwise. So when all the names get brought up (whether it's Cosby, Kobe, Tyson, or anyone you can name), I feel I almost have to automatically disqualify myself. Part of that is I've already had too many run-ins on here that got super ugly whether it's MADCAP saying black people should just be happy with their paychecks in one of the Oscar threads from years back or Mike Naimark (who I don't believe has been here for quite awhile) saying that Jack Johnson is really the one who drew the color line in boxing. That type of shit sets me the fuck off. I come from a background that doesn't allow me to handle it pleasantly. Quick story time: Several years ago when I was in junior high school (Cassie Pennington Junior High School which I'm sure is named something else now), I had this teacher named Mr. McAdory who was my Mississippi Studies teacher as well as our vice principal. Think Uncle Phil from Fresh Prince of Bel-Air but more heavy set and with a little lighter complexion. Well, he told us a story in the middle of class one day that still resonates with me today and I will never forget. Years prior, as the coach for the school's baseball team, he was at practice one day with the team in the middle of summer in hot ass Mississippi heat. Around the baseball field, there was this hill that kinda overlooks it. On this hill, people usually come by to sell stuff whether it's snow cones, tamales, or fruit. Apparently, there was this older white guy who was on the hill selling watermelons. No one was tripping on the racial connotation of him being white selling watermelon. No one was really paying attention to that aspect. That turned out not to be the issue. Mr. McAdory took a closer look at this fellow, kinda recognized him, and then fully recognized him. Then, without telling his team anything, he left the field, went up on the hill, and told the guy not to come back anymore. He came back, didn't say anything to the team, and practice went on without further incident. Some days later, IIRC some of the members of the baseball team were in his class. After calling roll, just like he did with us when he told us the whole story, he started talking about when he was younger in 1950s/60s Mississippi near Money, Mississippi, riding his bicycle, and having to come inside when the street lights went on because of the thought some drunk white guy was going to stumble out of a bar and lynch you. We had no idea where he was going with this story until he told us the conclusion like he told his students back when this incident occurred. The guy who was out there selling watermelon and was told never to come back again was one of the guys who got off for brutally disfiguring and killing Emmett Till in 1955. I'm not sure if it was the guy who was married to Carolyn Bryant (who BTW is related to one of MS's former Lt. governors Phil Bryant) or one of the other guys, but either way Mr. McAdory knew who the fuck he was. Plus, the guy knew why he could never to come back again to that particular baseball field. That shit struck a chord with me. I was told this story at the same age as Emmett Till when he was murdered decades prior. Every year of high school, I would go on and look at the graphic pictures of what happened to him whether it was in Eyes on the Prize (the version with Malcolm-Jamal Warner narrating) or some other documentary in school. Some years later, when I first got on internet message boards (this particularly one may as well been called Stormfront.org but with wrestling fans), I remember talking about Emmett Till for whatever reason and then some white woman who was one of the frequent posters there said "Oh maybe he deserved that for whistling". It just fucking enraged me to no end. A few years ago when Carolyn Bryant admitted she made up the whole story, people who kinda knew the story (i.e. people who weren't from Mississippi) saw it as some type of vindication. Every black person who grew up in Mississippi (and to be fair, Chicago since that's where the Till family moved to) knew what was up. We didn't need any fucking more proof. And sadly, this is where the alliance ends between different categories of black people. We can all agree what happened to Emmett Till was extremely, extremely fucked up. However, in many cases, there is this attitude in social media and other platforms built off up centuries old white stereotypes that you other n***** deserve it. A few years ago, some women went on The Breakfast Club talking about how black men are the leading cause of death among black women (I believe it was heart disease or something...maybe hypertension). None of what they were saying was based in fact. In that way, these platforms are way for people to just vent now with no consequences (hell, we saw this with the ExposeWrestling twitter just a day or so ago). People always throw around the term toxic, but refuse to put that label on themselves. So yes, I would like to have this beautiful back-and-forth conversation about these complexities especially since most of the discourse has been rather peaceful all things considered. However, it's extremely tough for me to discuss these things when the feeling for a lot of people STILL is little black boys (specifically African-American) come out of the crib with the innate belief/mindset/behavior that you have to abuse, molest, rape, and kill others and that we're basically sub-human. And if you don't cut them down (through death or imprisonment) at a certain age, you got a fucking menace to society on your hands. For those reasons alone, I have to abstain from some of these discussions.

Hairspray.

Let's try to get through this match. This is magic: A lot going on here; I love the little ways Gentilly controls the limb: Cravate kneelift, mean kick, and then this weird inverted gutwrench (he'd do a few of these until Gentilly turned it into a backbreaker and they went into finish of the second fall)

This. Also a possibility that there was a bit or two involving either Havoc or Sammy G. Might not be the best taste for backstage wrestling comedy with everything going on. I hear you on being depressed about wrestling right now. Maybe it’s my privilege showing from ignorance, but I can’t imagine what these workers (and honestly women in almost every field) had to go through with these creeps. A chick friend once sent me a nude as a joke while I was seeing somebody else (before I met my wife) and it really fucked with me. I knew it was her way as a joke and people thought I was supposed to find it funny, but it really got me down. But I didn’t work with her, she didn’t have power over my position at work, or have the ability to over power me as a person. It’s that uncomfortable and depressing feeling x100. What these people (mostly women) had to face is really bringing tears to my eyes. Thinking of that wrestler that Kongo made reveal himself “as a rib” or the poor women that received aggressive nude texts, or the woman Osprey got blacklisted. How insane is it to go and look at women’s DM’s that they get on dating apps. How quickly it turns to “good guy” violent trash. This is all absolutely maddening. When the protests/rioting happened in my city of Minneapolis I felt I had to do something. I cleaned the streets in the mornings and moved rubble out of the sidewalks. What do I even do for this injustice? Is there something I can help with or is this just a yell at people until things change? Am I an idiot for even asking?

My favourite move named after an animal is Calf Branding. Although it may be named after a body part. Which would make no sense because it's a kneedrop, not a legdrop.

You gotta love Don Owens (TM Buddy Rose) coming off like the irritated, but kind of out-of-it old guy when he's really the owner and probably booker of the promotion. It's a Vito Genovese thing where he acts like a doddering old fool but is truly an evil mastermind.

Suspend the whole damn season until it's discovered who did it. And if it was a member of another team, kick the entire damn team off the circuit.

I don't know if it's my place to throw out a solution but I tend to agree. Even if the story ends in people serving time, there should be an avenue back to "polite society" otherwise what is the best outcome? They live under a rock learning to hate the system and everybody in it? Maybe that is what they deserve but it sure sounds like a path to recidivism. Progressive people largely preach for restorative justice and moving towards making everybody involved better long term. This is a good chance to practice what we preach. It's why I said in the main thread there is no perfect solution to something so awful, but that may be the best of the bad outcomes. To be clear this isn't promoting a slap on the wrist approach either.

Star making night for Abadon and Starks I thought, it's definitely got me set to seek out more of their matches tomorrow at work. Are there any matches on YouTube or Dailymotion that are highly recommended? Oof, Dustin taking those double knees to the head.? Sagat himself couldn't land a double knee attack with such precision, maybe Tony Jaa could but damn! Hope Dustin is fine. Hahahaha Baker had me howling in her segments!? her popping out of the dumpster like a muppet showing up to chat up Mr Rogers was killing me hahahahahaha! MJF and Gunn also brought some chuckles and solid story progression with that wild brawl after the match. Really enjoyed the show top to bottom.